Self ID of gender...can we discuss this?

I was just discussing the differences in belief systems and in my experience many people who say trans women are women behave completely differently towards transwomen as they do towards women.

I think that whst you believe or I believe is irrelevant in many ways, it is what the law states that matters.

Dragonella

*I categorically believe that trans women are women in every way except for their gender assignment at birth and capacity to therefore give birth.*

But simply because you categorically believe something doesn't make it true. Unfortunately the business of giving birth is a straw man argument that doesn't really deal with the main objections.

For instance, what is your view of people who have gone through puberty as males, using their male strength to win trophies which were allocated to women, who compete separately from men because we already know men are stronger? Do you think that's just the women's hard luck if trans women beat all the women's world records by miles? Because personally, I consider it very unsporting, and in the case of some sports like rugby football, dangerous to the natal females who take part.

Said in response to another poster saying something along the lines of 'if that's what people truly believe and not just something they say' - it wasn't a commandment, or a demand of others. It's a personal statement of my belief, and my attitude towards and treatment of trans people is filtered through it. So no straw man, just solid argument.

I would argue that the main objections are the straw man.

I will come back to the sport question, but I want to find the relevant science to back up what I want to say, so please bear with me and I will answer it.

Amberspyglass - good phrase Toxic Masculinity'.

One of the safest places I've been was Sitges (Spain) with its own special all inclusive population with many men. Yes mixed loos too.
People do have chromosome or hormone differences happening in the womb. Sorry can't do links but the info is out there - not just on the web either.
Sometimes intersex people have surgery as a baby but (hopefully not as much now) the wrong sex is assigned to them.

Hmm. I don’t think so, and even if they do the campaigns will continue.

I think prisons will quietly wth minimal fuss change the policy. The concern coming from those running prisons is beginning to get louder. The issue is most people just dont care about women in prison. Are there legal cases coming from some women prisoners? I think there might be but the number of legal cases is hard to keep up with.

I categorically believe that trans women are women in every way except for their gender assignment at birth and capacity to therefore give birth.

But simply because you categorically believe something doesn't make it true. Unfortunately the business of giving birth is a straw man argument that doesn't really deal with the main objections.

For instance, what is your view of people who have gone through puberty as males, using their male strength to win trophies which were allocated to women, who compete separately from men because we already know men are stronger? Do you think that's just the women's hard luck if trans women beat all the women's world records by miles? Because personally, I consider it very unsporting, and in the case of some sports like rugby football, dangerous to the natal females who take part.

The plural of anecdote isn’t data.

Julie Miller is a transwoman.

Hear hear!

I categorically believe that trans women are women in every way except for their gender assignment at birth and capacity to therefore give birth.

If women being able to give birth is the only real, currently demonstrable argument against self ID, then the women making the argument are insulting an awful lot of natal women too. Like those who've had hysterectomies, those who can't conceive at all, those past menopause.

Some statistics relating to sexual violence against women, in their proper context, just to clarify my point

www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence

I dont think the statistics will narrow down to small men or blond haired men for example, for me the statistics refer to the Male sex and you cant change sex. It comes down to the crux of the matter as I have said before and it is why we go round in circles, I dont believe you can change sex. Some people believe transwomen are women, (well I think they do, I am not sure how much of it is just something that is said) and if you believe that I can see why you wouldnt understand why I am talking about men.

GagaJo

We did a 'Me Too' thread on here a while ago. It was illuminating.

Unfortunately, it's a fact that most violent attacks, a huge %, are committed by men. It isn't man hating to state a fact.

I didn't say it was, which is equally a fact. I asked for accuracy regarding statistics within their context.

I think men deserve a fair representation too.

I cant remember if it was here or on MN that I saw a me too thread it was horrific and very sad.

Galaxy I know it's not rare, I'm one of those women - I have no discomfort at all in talking about it. I have both been violently assaulted by men and worked with other women who have, so I feel I've earned my stripes on this topic. Plus, as mentioned before I've worked with violent men both in and out of prison.

I'm even responsible for creating some of those statistics, which is why I will always ask for context. If we fail to use statistics in context, the statistics lose meaning.

I certainly didn't call you a man hater, I said that you give the impression of despising and distrusting men and asked you to correct me if I was wrong.

As for the statistic you quote - the 1 in 5, yes that stands but it has zero relevance to trans people and self ID and shouldn't be used in this context. Until you can state that any of those statistics specifically relate to violent attacks by trans women on other women they mean nothing. Sorry Galaxy, but that's how statistics work - in context.

We did a 'Me Too' thread on here a while ago. It was illuminating.

Unfortunately, it's a fact that most violent attacks, a huge %, are committed by men. It isn't man hating to state a fact.

As someone who was sexually assaulted by a cisgender man, I think it’s pretty clear that trans women aren’t the problem here. I do think that there’s a level of misandry and gender essentialism carried over from second wave feminism that if anything lets men get away with bad behaviour because it’s what society is supposed to accept from them.

Men aren’t the problem - toxic masculinity is.

No and being called a man hater is fairly boring to be honest. I can give the usual disclaimer if you like that I have a DH 2 sons a brother etc etc. I dont believe all men are a risk but I know that it's impossible to tell which males pose a risk and which dont.
I think everyone gets very upset about people talking about Male violence against women Nell. It is very uncomfortable for people. I think it depends on your definition of small numbers, 1 in 5 women have experienced some form of sexual assault.

Galaxy Wow, you really do appear to despise and distrust men - it's as if you believe that 97% of men will carry out a violent crime against a woman. Or a least that's the impression I get. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is it not more accurate to see that of all the attacks on the relatively small number of women who are attacked at all, 97% of them are carried out by natal men?

To keep presenting that figure without context is very misleading and if I identified as a man I think I would be pretty disturbed by the assertion.

I’m absolutely in agreement with VampireQueen here. Luckily most of society is moving forward with tolerance, acceptance and support - it’s only small corners of the internet who haven’t.

In order to believe that someone can be born in the wrong body you need to believe in souls or some inner essence, I am not religious so dont believe that. Most of the organisations supporting transpeople now realise that the born in the wrong body debate was very damaging and are reversing away from that as fast as possible.

You believe that vampire and that's fine in the same way you may believe in God and I dont. There is no way to change sex, to tell transpeople they can change sex is deeply damaging in my view and as far as I am aware is made very clear that this can not be done in the process.
Nell anyone by nature of being Male poses a greater statistical risk. They may not be a risk at all unfortunately it's impossible to know which men pose risk and which dont. So my brother for example is a greater risk than I am statistically in terms of violent crime and in particular violent sexual crime. I am not suggesting he is a risk but unfortunately for women there is no way of knowing.

metro.co.uk/2021/02/21/trans-woman-comes-out-to-daughter-3-who-calls-her-beautiful-14119092/?ito=facebook%7Csocial%7Cmetroukfacebook&fbclid=IwAR0xSR3nB9woHmr7zTnvWDiYzYvn9U_wFtdIX3wO2KAhqNYBE9VlHxfQUdw

She knew when she was six years old.

But vampirequeen there is no such thing as a gendered mind. There are only minds that are gendered by being cultured to be that - nurture not nature.

So what difference does the biological body make if the mind has no gender?