Self ID of gender...can we discuss this?

The fact that a lot of Male violence happens in the private space is no argument to reducing the safeguards in a public space.

Galaxy I didn't dispute it, but I did ask a question. Do you believe that encouraging self ID will increase violent crime against women?

I also asked if you thought that changes in legislation, language etc would result in natal men posing as women in order to carry out violent crimes against women?

I already knew the statistics, but thank you for reiterating.

Men in womens prisons has caused serious issues already, those who work in them are expressing serious concerns. So yes I do. I dont think self id is going to happen for the time being, I think women have changed the narrative on that. I think the exemptions in the equality act should be used.

I think the changes in language result in a further dehumanising of women which obviously impacts on how everyone behaves towards women

Fair point Gagajo I agree and can't argue. In your view what is the real point of feminism?

And I am asking honestly, because I think the interpretation varies and therein might lie the infighting.

If the one thing we could manage here is a consensus on that meaning, it has to be a good thing, doesn't it?

Then* Galaxy* with the absolute greatest respect, and I honestly do mean that - you have no argument. Self ID is happening, the language is changing, the exemptions will be, and are used. All you have left is a complaint - making an argument of it is akin to running round trying to tell everyone the sky is falling in when it clearly isn't.

If women really want to change the narrative they'd be better of starting with seeing how they undo their own arguments and create gaps that allow dismissal to creep in.

Interesting discussion
NellG well put throughout ?
Re: above (if I post quick enough) Let's not forget women also commit violent crimes; sometimes against men who are too embarrassed to report it. Sometimes women can claim PMT etc etc.
If we've encountered violence against women we're more likely to have an issue with separate facilities. Personally I'm happy to use mixed services - or I'd never travel abroad!

As other posters said yesterday unless someone dressed to be noticed who would know whether they were M or F? & - maybe it's discriminating to Want to know.

Last thought - some people are born this was - totally biologically , Intersex (hermaphrodite) Apparently more common than we know ( or need to know)

FFS the mind boggles.
There are two sexes end of,in human and the animal kingdom.
Male/Female.

Check out 'Hermaphrodites' in the plant and animal kingdom. Just a quick Google search.

...and also among humans.

Self ID isnt happening at the moment. I think we need to continue to ensure the exemptions are used in prisons refuges etc. So am glad we agree on that.
The intersex community have begged not to be involved in this discussion.
I am really happy some people are comfortable using mixed sex facilities, however you cant speak for other people. That's not how consent works.

We're discussing self identity. How would we know which particular category people fall into? The intersex community are human beings I haven't seen anything here saying they want to be left out of the discussion.
If people want to use single sex facilities that's up to them too. Sometimes I have to go out of my way to use something because for some reason I don't like the nearest available. It doesn't give me a lawful right. It doesn't mean they should upgrade the standards.

Nature makes mistakes in the womb. We, when we can, correct those mistakes. In this case we can correct it with surgery ensuring that men can be men and women can be women. Aren't some people being a tad discriminatory against transgender women? If she's a woman then why should she be a threat to any other women? Some men will always be a threat to women just as some women will be a threat to other women. Some women will always be a threat to men just as some men will be a threat to other men. Are some of you suggesting that we discriminate against a group of people just because some people may pretend to be like them so that they can attack other people?

Many in the intersex community have put out statements that they dont want to be part if the debate in transgender issues, they don't want to be used as a gotcha in this particular debate. I am afraid that single sex facilities are enshrined in law so there is a legal right.

No I am suggesting we have sex segregation for a reason vampire, I dont think sex segregation is discrimination.

Vampire I think the issue is and I have said this before you believe transwomen are women, I dont believe you can change sex. The law is also clear that in some cases -prisons refuges etc, sex segregation is permitted.

But I don't understand your reasoning. Why would a transgender woman be a threat to any other woman? A man who going to attack women will do so regardless. A woman who is going to attack women will do so regardless. I don't see why discriminating against a group by refusing them access to women's spaces will protect anyone. It simply makes a difficult life even more difficult.

Because they are male vampire. It's why via the law they can be excluded from places such as refuges etc. So as I mentioned Eddie Izzard is the same risk as Jmmy Carr, that may be no risk or it may be some risk but it is the same risk. Compared to say dawn French the risk from both is much higher. In addition women who have been assaulted by men, are entitled to spaces without men.

Galaxy

Because they are male vampire. It's why via the law they can be excluded from places such as refuges etc. So as I mentioned Eddie Izzard is the same risk as Jmmy Carr, that may be no risk or it may be some risk but it is the same risk. Compared to say dawn French the risk from both is much higher. In addition women who have been assaulted by men, are entitled to spaces without men.

You're making a statement using people's names Galaxy, and saying that there is a higher risk of two real people attacking women than there is of another woman attacking women. There's a fine line between example and defamation.

I'm not playing post wars, or trying to start a fight, just suggesting you might want to make it clear you are not suggesting any of these actual people are a risk to anyone as none have ever indicated that they might be.

Unfortunately these threads constantly illustrate that 'you know what I mean' is no defence. I hope you don't mind me pointing it out.

But they're not male. They're women who by an accident of nature have been born in a male body. It's not something they decide on a whim. The drugs and surgery aren't a picnic in the park. They suffer a lot to change. Why should they suffer further by being denied access to certain women only places?

But vampirequeen there is no such thing as a gendered mind. There are only minds that are gendered by being cultured to be that - nurture not nature.

So what difference does the biological body make if the mind has no gender?

metro.co.uk/2021/02/21/trans-woman-comes-out-to-daughter-3-who-calls-her-beautiful-14119092/?ito=facebook%7Csocial%7Cmetroukfacebook&fbclid=IwAR0xSR3nB9woHmr7zTnvWDiYzYvn9U_wFtdIX3wO2KAhqNYBE9VlHxfQUdw

She knew when she was six years old.

You believe that vampire and that's fine in the same way you may believe in God and I dont. There is no way to change sex, to tell transpeople they can change sex is deeply damaging in my view and as far as I am aware is made very clear that this can not be done in the process.
Nell anyone by nature of being Male poses a greater statistical risk. They may not be a risk at all unfortunately it's impossible to know which men pose risk and which dont. So my brother for example is a greater risk than I am statistically in terms of violent crime and in particular violent sexual crime. I am not suggesting he is a risk but unfortunately for women there is no way of knowing.

In order to believe that someone can be born in the wrong body you need to believe in souls or some inner essence, I am not religious so dont believe that. Most of the organisations supporting transpeople now realise that the born in the wrong body debate was very damaging and are reversing away from that as fast as possible.

I’m absolutely in agreement with VampireQueen here. Luckily most of society is moving forward with tolerance, acceptance and support - it’s only small corners of the internet who haven’t.