Woman

Done prisons before M0nica I'm sure the thread is somewhere.
Doodledog I did say before that the solution to the person with male bits stripping off in a communal area was to ban it for everyone. It does bring up the interesting question of why it is OK for strange women to be naked in front of a 3year old but not men. Surely for most children it's family members only?
Mollygo If your friend is really upset about the decision why not support her by bringing a civil case under the Equalities Act? You could Crowdfund to pay for it. I'm sure it would have heaps of support and if there are women who have stopped using the pool because of transwomen it would be a great test case.

That is ridiculous! Moreover I usually call all humans 'men' when others are able to be objective in conversations.

Whenever I am in a (female) communal changing room I find that women tend to be discreet, usually with their backs to the room, and not wander around naked. So if someone self identifying as a woman but who still has male genitalia exposes themselves to all and sundry couldn't it be assumed that they are doing it for some sort of sexual gratification and shouldn't women and children be protected from that?

Maya Forstater only won her case for unfair dismissal for saying that women were females. It didn’t change the legislation on the rights of men to self ID into necessarily separate female spaces. There is even a maternity’s hospital in Brighton where the term mother and breast has been outlawed part of the NHS. Birthing parent and chest feeding are the only allowable terms without being charged with transphobia. It was merely questioning this that got jk Rowling cancelled. You know it was her birthday last week and in ‘today’s birthday’ column in the Guardian she was not included. It’s chilling we all used to believe in the guardian now it has been taken over by trans activists. Women reporters like Suzanne Moore treated far worse than gay men who protest but it has meant any debate on the issue is now only to be found on private substacks, the times and telegraph. With dog whistle cries of right wing. It’s a powerful cunning lobby. And you’re right women must stand up for themselves. And trisher you are allowing debate which is so rare

Doodledog I did say before that the solution to the person with male bits stripping off in a communal area was to ban it for everyone. It does bring up the interesting question of why it is OK for strange women to be naked in front of a 3year old but not men. Surely for most children it's family members only?

Oh, come on. Ban people from stripping off in a changing room? How would that work? You are really clutching at straws here. If a woman takes her children into a female changing room she will expect that she (and they) will see other women in a state of undress. If she's happy with that, it is her decision to make. It is not unreasonable of her not to expect to see an intact male in there, is it?

Also, and I realise that this will infuriate you, but I agree with Oldwoman70 and would venture to suggest that a transwoman who goes into such a changing room instead of a private cubicle is far more likely to be an exhibitionist than a traumatised victim of make rape that took place in the male changing room of the baths.

grannygranby's points about the likes of Suzanne Moore are very valid too. Your suggestion that gender critical women are right wing anti-feminists (on this and numerous threads passim) is either disingenuous or frighteningly ill-informed.

Doodledog my local pool did this some time ago. Large notices in the ladies communal showers that no-one was to remove their costume except in the cubicles provided.
Most of us managed.

Ok, but why not just have an expectation that no men would be in there, and save the hassle. The bashful could use the cubicles, and mothers with two or three children to sort out could do so with room to manoeuvre.

Did your pool do this as a result of transwomen causing discomfort to women, incidentally? It seems an odd thing to do otherwise.

grannygranby thankyou for acknowledging I do debate and that my suggestion that women empower themselves isn't in any way denigrating women. I do find it a bit difficult when the people I am debating with use personal slurs to silence me. I also don't understand why any suggestion I make is met with "It wouldn't work" but a theoretical piece of legislation which no one has so far explained and which as far as I am concerned is totally impracticable and unworkable is seen as a solution.

No idea *Doodledog but it was first done about ten years ago (I forget exactly when) so I doubt it. Women who don't want to see other women naked I expect which is justified.

trisher

grannygranby thankyou for acknowledging I do debate and that my suggestion that women empower themselves isn't in any way denigrating women. I do find it a bit difficult when the people I am debating with use personal slurs to silence me. I also don't understand why any suggestion I make is met with "It wouldn't work" but a theoretical piece of legislation which no one has so far explained and which as far as I am concerned is totally impracticable and unworkable is seen as a solution.

You're back to the passive aggression now.

Trisher when in a hole the best advice is to stop digging.

MOnica I suggested that umpteen posts back but some people just never give up.

I missed that, Germanshepherdsmum. apologies.

On the other hand, Perhaps trisher wants to visit family in Australia. It is probably the only way you can get there at the moment.

Germanshepherdsmum
I find the idea of an intact man trying to look like a woman repulsive, likewise when a ‘woman’ (how some of you will enjoy the inverted commas) is interviewed on tv and the features and voice are clearly those of a man. That is how I feel and whatever anyone thinks of those feelings won’t change them. I doubt I’m unique amongst my generation. I have only once seen someone very obviously male dressed and made up as a woman. That would have been in the 80s but I can still see his face, the whiskers and blue eyeshadow, such was my horror then
I am highly unlikely to take any advice from anyone posting things like this. Judging by personal appearance hasn't been acceptable for years. It's one of the reasons disabled people were locked away- because people didn't like looking at them. It's one reason some concluded that black people were inferior.. It was used by the Nazis to identify non-Aryans. Someone I know had her head, face and nose measured when she was at school in Germany to see if she fitted the Aryan ideal
I thought most people realised today that looks are nothing to do with character..

Hello M0nica dropped in to lower the tone? Anything interesting or original to add to the discussion?

Oh dear, and it was going so well.

No idea *Doodledog but it was first done about ten years ago (I forget exactly when) so I doubt it. Women who don't want to see other women naked I expect which is justified.

How is it justifiable for women not to want to see other women naked, but not so for women who don't want to see men naked?

This is the very sort of post that really screams of seeing the needs of transmen as paramount.

All the sarcastic comments about women fainting at the sight of a penis, and suggestions that we get 'hen parties' to scare off men who shouldn't be there in the first place, or that we should learn to be assertive (a bit rich from the Queen of passive aggression!) when we talk about a man in the female changing rooms, but at the same time you accept that there are women who don't want to see other women naked. Can't you see the dissonance there?

Doodledog, MOnica, Germanshepherdsmum. You're lucky trisher still engages with you, in all honesty. Frankly, she's a model of restraint. I can't participate without wanting to lower myself to your level.

My goodness trisher you must have spent a while looking for that one in order to create another diversion. Back to the disabled, black and Nazi diversions too. You must judge my short and medium term memory to be very poor. I merely related my experience many years ago and described my feelings. So far as I am aware it’s not illegal to have those feelings nor to reveal that you have them in a situation such as this. If you aren’t fazed by seeing someone very obviously male, unshaven and wearing full makeup and a dress (though perhaps you would have been back then), even perhaps to see them in the budgie smugglers you mentioned earlier or naked in a women’s changing room that’s your affair. It’s not for you to tell me what or how I may and may not feel. I have said nothing about character nor have I judged the man in question save to clock that he was very obviously male, but trying very unsuccessfully to appear otherwise.
What you said to MOnica was extremely nasty and uncalled for. If anyone is lowering the tone here it isn’t her.

GagaJo, I wish trisher would stop engaging. I feel extremely unlucky that she just keeps on and on like a broken record. What makes you think I’m lucky to be on the receiving end of her abuse? A model of restraint is she? Well at least you won’t be participating further by the sound of it. Small mercies. Quite happy with my level thank you - but hey, aren’t you being a tad judgmental there?

Germanshepherdsmum well someone has to explain as you obviously think judging on personal appearnce is still OK. I'm afraid it isn't. You can feel whatever you like but to imagine those feelings are somehow justified because someone doesn't look or conform with some standard you have somehow aquired from somewhere isn't acceptable. Presumably because you only go by personal appearance you will be happy to share with a transwoman if she is looks suitably female. Perhaps someone like Ru Paul would be admissable in this world of yours.
I have no doubt you would be happier if I stopped engaging. It's obvious that you choose to maintain the narrowest possible views.
Doodledog you' re quite right I should have said people who don't want to see people naked. The fact that it is in the women's changing room confused me (and I was on my way out)

GagaJo

Doodledog, MOnica, Germanshepherdsmum. You're lucky trisher still engages with you, in all honesty. Frankly, she's a model of restraint. I can't participate without wanting to lower myself to your level.

GagaJo you don't participate anyway.

All you ever do on these threads is tell others to post from life experience that you don't define, and tell us about your record of 'activism' as though you are the only person on the boards to do anything for others. I can't think of a single thing that you have ever added to the debate.

Your loyalty to trisher is touching, but if you read the thread, you will see that it is she who has accused people of Nazi sympathies in classic Godwin's Law style, of telling lies, of not being assertive, of not supporting other women, of having a victim mentality, of not understanding that most DV happens in the home and countless other diversions and insults.

When she posted a measured response earlier, people were willing to allow her to back down a bit with dignity and engage sensibly, but before we knew it we were being accused of 'using personal slurs'. If you can't see the irony of that, I am sure that others reading the thread will see it.

Doodledog you' re quite right I should have said people who don't want to see people naked. The fact that it is in the women's changing room confused me (and I was on my way out)

That's fine. It is so easy to trip over words when posting in a hurry.

I haven't accused anyone of Nazi sympathies I simply pointed out that personal appearance was a standard they used to discriminate. Perhaps some weren't aware of that. It is though exactly how right wing parties come to power. Blame one group of humans for all the ills of the society. Focus on them and direct all hate and dissatisfaction towards them. Once you have disposed of them or sent them into hiding begin on another sub-group.

Most of my posts have been quite measured and I have made quite a few positive suggestions which none of you seem to want to undertake.
I do admit to having a sense of humour about this whole thing and sometimes being unable to resist taking the piss.

trisher You amuse me.

I don't have loyalty to trisher. She and I have never been in contact other than on the forums.

I just think that she is mostly very patient and continues to engage way beyond a point that most others including me would throw in the towel. I'm too intolerant.

I think we all went to school, and will be aware of the rise of the Nazis. They weren't hot on women's rights either, and in common with other extremist parties employed communication strategiess similar to the 'all feminists should support all women' one mentioned above.