Woman

Doodledog They were however enthusiastically supported by many women. Those who regarded the permissive and artistic culture growing in places like Berlin as a real threat and believed in the economic promises.

Yes, a lot of people can be taken in by persuasive arguments and weasel words.

Just because something is enthusisastically supported by a large group of people, men, women or children, doesn't make them right. Look at the Anti-vax movement.

No, but people can be taken in by things that aren't right - it happens all the time.

I'm not sure how the fact that many women supported the Nazis helps trasher's argument, though - rather the reverse, to be honest.

Is anyone still watching A Handmaid's Tale? It's fiction, of course, but it is about what happens when women stop being 'women' and instead are defined by others with nefarious motives, and it's terrifying.

Sorry - trisher not trasher?

Actually A Handmaid's Tale (the original) is about men controlling women and using them for their reproductive capacity. The women married to the men in power were happy to use other women.
I'm watching "Pose" two of the most beautiful transgender actresses I've ever seen. Set in 1990s New work as AIDs devastated the gay community

“Most of my posts have been quite measured”, Self praise is no recommendation, but actually your sentence applies to most posters on here.
You say
“someone doesn’t . . . conform with some standard you have acquired from somewhere isn’t acceptable.” Seems to be how you view other people’s opinions.

“I haven’t accused anyone of Nazi sympathies” but you are the one who keeps using the word Nazi and suggesting things that you think about other posters e.g. suggesting we would like people to wear pink triangles.
Your making statements like that about people who have never expressed any such intent is worrying.

“Judging by personal appearance hasn’t been acceptable for years.”
You’re right about that, but everybody notices appearances, even you, e.g. your comment about your singing buddy. I was amazed that you knew her height, weight, muscularity and strength. Most of us only notice friends as taller or shorter than us. If you notice that much detail, you can’t blame anyone else for noticing that a ‘woman’ is displaying as a man.
Your pool obviously thinks there might be a problem as it has put up signs. Our pool has a screened off area for mothers and children to change after swimming because they need more space than is available in a small cubicle. Women not accompanied by children respect that. Let’s hope transwomen do the same.

As Doodledog and Oldwoman70 already mentioned, ‘a transwoman who goes into a changing room instead of a private cubicle is far more likely to be an exhibitionist’
Transwomen who use cubicles are more considerate of natal women and that’s good.

Women should stand up for themselves.
Somebody has already mentioned women traumatised by domestic violence, J K Rowling, Maya Forstatter and Suzanne Moore. When I listen to Baroness Jenkin expressing concern about the attacks she might be under for expressing an opinion about the rights of women, I wonder exactly how many women could face the threats and insults that would arise if they ‘stood up for themselves!’
Women shouldn’t have to ‘stand up’ for the fact that they are women against people who think they have more right to call themselves that and use their ‘woman ness’ to the detriment of natal women, and if they DO stand up, they should be able to do so in safety.

I'm watching "Pose" two of the most beautiful transgender actresses I've ever seen

Once again Trisher you are speaking in a confusing away. Quoting the beauty of a couple of people as if that was what mattered and which you seem to think validates them.

If I was watching a film, what I would looking for in the actors would be the quality of the acting, not the quality of their looks. That would be their validation, not their looks or what gender they were

You also describe them as actresses, an archaic term, disliked by actors of all genders and little used these days, except in the gutter press when describing a notable person's clandestine lover.

Excellent post @ 19.35 DoodleDog

M0nica you'll be really pleased then that Mj Rodriguez who plays Blanca won an Emmy in 2021 for best Leading Actress in a Drama series for her performance in this series of Pose.

trisher, there is a big difference between observation and judgment. You seem not to understand that difference, so to use your patronising word I will ‘explain’ that I have related what I have observed and related my feelings upon those observations, feelings which you kindly accept I am entitled to experience. However you then decide I am justifying those feelings (where did I do that?) by making comparisons with ‘some standard’ I have ‘acquired from somewhere’ and that I judge everyone by personal appearance. Once again you draw similarities with Nazi beliefs. You go on to emphasise your unfounded belief that I judge solely on appearance by suggesting quite ridiculously that I might be more accepting of a man professionally made up such as Ru Paul. You are the one leaping to judgment here. And by mocking my feelings, describing me as narrow minded and talking about ‘my world’ you show that you are only willing to accept anyone else’s views if those views conform to yours. You might say you’re a feminist but you’re anything but. A true feminist stands up for the rights of all natal women and doesn’t adopt an unjustified air of superiority towards those who hold different views to hers but who are nevertheless entirely supportive of the rights of natal women in all situations.

Mollygo I suggested pink triangles because none of you have yet suggested how anyone is going to identify transwomen who are using places like swimming pool changing areas and stop them entering. You all persist in insisting these can be designated safe spaces and I'm simply pointing out there isn't anyway of telling who is trans and who isn't.
I'm quite open to other ways if there are any.

I don't blame anyone for saying they notice appearances. I do object when they use that appearance to make judgemental decisions. And I'd do that about any judgement. I'm sure if someone posted how they hated to see old people because their skin is so wrinkly ,and that once they saw an old woman with a wrinkly eyes and blue eyeshadow, and it traumatised them, you would find it offensive. So why is it OK to say a man or a transwoman with make up does that?

I refer to the Nazis with reason. We currently have a right wing government desperate to find a minority to target and clamp down on. I'm hugely suspicious about why trans issues are suddenly being focussed on and genuinely worried about freedoms for my grandchildren.

Germanshepherdsmum I refer you to my post to Mollygo And ask you would it be OK for people to say "Old people offend me I don't want to look at them."?

trisher

Actually A Handmaid's Tale (the original) is about men controlling women and using them for their reproductive capacity. The women married to the men in power were happy to use other women.
I'm watching "Pose" two of the most beautiful transgender actresses I've ever seen. Set in 1990s New work as AIDs devastated the gay community

In the original HMT, as in the TV adaptation, the Wives bought into the idea of Gilead with religious fervour, not realising the impact that it would ultimately have on them, as in their heads they had separated themselves from their biology. They were able to do this as 'women' were no longer a single class, but a collection of segregated classes, so they could overlook the plight of those who were suffering - at least at the beginning. Once the ideas had taken root, of course, they realised that it was men at the top controlling everything, including the Wives, but by then it was too late.

There are, IMO, parallels with the topic of this thread, in that the patriarchy in both cases has relied on the internalised misogny ingrained into many women to further its cause.

There have always been women who see the approval of men as more valuable than that of other women. From girls who are proud of the fact that they have more male friends than female, women saying they would rather have a male boss, through to women seeing transwomen as needing more consideration than women.

Well put Doodledog.

You all persist in insisting these can be designated safe spaces and I'm simply pointing out there isn't anyway of telling who is trans and who isn't. I'm quite open to other ways if there are any.

Have you been reading our posts? It has been said over and over that it's only important when there is a way of telling! If a transwoman changes in a cubicle, swims, then leave the pool and changes back in a cubicle, few people, if any, would notice or care if they did. It is in circumstances such as when someone with full male genitals uses a communal room that there is a problem.

Similarly, the way in which the TWAW 'no debate' mantra insists that men are women because they say they are makes it much more likely that dangerous characters will get into DV refuges and so on. That is what we are concerned about, not the fact that transwomen exist.

You keep pointing out that transwomen have been around for many years, and nobody knew about them. You also keep saying that you 'don't want to look under clothing' to determine someone's sex. Both of these things suggest that for those men (or name of them) who genuinely want to 'live as women' it is possible to do so unobtrusively. Yet over the past few years there has been an increase in the numbers of obviously male-bodied people drawing attention to themselves - not in a 'out and proud' sort of way, but in spaces which have are recognisably 'female' - places where there are obvious reasons why men should not go.

Why do you think this should be?

'name of them' should be 'many of them'.

The problem with that response Doodledog is that the idea that I am in anyway seperated from you is entirely unfounded. I simply don't see your ideas as practical, workable or indeed acceptable. And it is actually the trans exclusionist feminists who are accusing others of putting transwomen first. Asking for equality is not saying anyone needs more consideration just that equal consideration should be given to everyone.
I have tried consistently not to call anyone transphobic because I don't think it is helpful to do so, but because I disagree with your points of view I have been instructed to keep quiet, stop digging and had my views on women questioned. So who is causing the split?
Patriachy is indeed splitting women but they are doing so because women are abandoning the basics of sisterhood. That respect is given, difference is embraced, ideas are discussed but solidarity always triumphs.
When the patriachy has successfully made trans issues unacceptable and driven trans people back into hiding who do you think will be next?

So Doodledog we seem to have agreement that swimming pools etc are not safe spaces and cannot be controlled and yes a man may dress as a woman and flash his bits in communal changing area. He may or may not be trans. Given that the pool staff might be reluctant to act what could stop this happening?
I also do wonder if he is an exhibitionist would it be better if he was restricted to the men's facilities, might he do the same to boys who wouldn't have their mother with them?

I said a few pages ago that I can see that swimming pools are not in the same category of safe spaces as, say DV refuges. I still feel that the communal changing rooms should be designated male or female, though. If discussion were more freely allowed, we could develop a mutually understood vocabulary, and that would be very useful.

I am delighted that you finally seem to have grasped where many of us are coming from when you say 'He may or may not be trans'. You finally get it.

This is why, for many, the notion of 'no debate' is dangerous, and why self-id is so concerning. How are we to know if a man is a transwoman or a passing exhibitionist? Or in a different context, a transwoman needing refuge from assault or a violent man who wants access to vulnerable women? When we have asked those questions you have replied by quoting the Equalities Act, and asking who will police things. Telling us that we are over-reacting and that true feminism includes men.

It is precisely because we don't know if a man who says he is a transwoman is genuine or not that we are concerned. Not because we are transphobes, and not because we are scared to speak out. Not because we want to prevent genuinely misgendered people from being happy.

As for the exhibitionist - yes, he probably would be the same in the male changing room. IMO that is no worse than what he is doing to women and girls, and the odds are that when there are other men around he will be less able to get his kicks by seeing the scared faces of those who don't expect to see him there.

Patriachy is indeed splitting women but they are doing so because women are abandoning the basics of sisterhood. That respect is given, difference is embraced, ideas are discussed but solidarity always triumphs.

When the patriachy has successfully made trans issues unacceptable and driven trans people back into hiding who do you think will be next?
I don't think that the patriarchy intends to make trans issues unacceptable though. As I keep saying, it is in their interests to dilute what it means to be a woman, by allowing anyone who says they are female to become one, so that they can control and dominate us from within.

Another ridiculous post addressed to me trisher. We’ve now moved from black and disabled people to old people. What will you think up next? Yet you said previously I was entitled to my feelings. Obviously not in ‘your world’, to quote that back at you. I’m still wondering what my ‘judgmental decisions’, as opposed to observations and feelings, might be but please spare me yet more patronising abuse by answering and inventing some examples. You refer to respect and sisterhood but I see little of that in your responses to people who don’t share your views. Little wonder that many women don’t ‘stand up for themselves’ or reveal their true feelings when someone like you will jump on them. Your posts display some unpleasant dictatorial features and as I have said previously you are not a true feminist, simply someone with an agenda who wishes to beat into submission all who do not for whatever reason share that agenda.

The paragraph above the last highlighted words in my post should also be highlighted, as they are a quote to trisher's words, not mine.

Germanshepherdsmum

Quite simply, whether logical or not, seeing an obviously intact man dressed/made up as a woman, or a person very obviously male dressed/made up as a woman in an all female space would frighten me. I don’t mean I would be afraid they would attack me (I’m not that vain), simply that it’s not something I would expect to see and would be shocked. Feel free to say I’ve lived a sheltered life or whatever attack you wish to make. I’m sure you won’t be alone. I find the idea of an intact man trying to look like a woman repulsive, likewise when a ‘woman’ (how some of you will enjoy the inverted commas) is interviewed on tv and the features and voice are clearly those of a man. That is how I feel and whatever anyone thinks of those feelings won’t change them. I doubt I’m unique amongst my generation. I have only once seen someone very obviously male dressed and made up as a woman. That would have been in the 80s but I can still see his face, the whiskers and blue eyeshadow, such was my horror then. Lots there for the picking but I won’t be engaging to defend myself.

Using the tern "repulsive" is judgemental Gsm so is "horror". However you feel about someone you are not entitled to post such statements. You can feel how you wish (although I would suggest you examine carefully where those feelings came from, as I would with any strong judgement based on appearance and not evidence) you just don't need to state such things.
but I will ask again would it be OK to post such judgements about old people?

No trisher those words are not judgmental. They are descriptive of my feelings. Don’t tell me what I can and cannot say within the bounds of the law - once again the dictatorial attitude which prevents women from speaking their mind in a situation which harms no-one and is supposed to be an open debate and frightens them into silence. As you have continually failed to answer entirely reasonable questions posed by others I see no reason to answer your entirely ridiculous question, intended only to goad. You may care to consider whether my feelings today might have been coloured by my experience some 40 years ago. In your position, as someone who has trained and mentored girls and women throughout my long career and listened to their problems I would have empathised with the person describing their experience whether I shared their views or not, and said I understood how they felt at that time. It’s entirely possible to understand a viewpoint without sharing it. That’s what feminists do, they empathise, they don’t seek to bully and abuse other women. Which is why you are not a feminist despite your protestations to the contrary.

feminist like the word gender is so corrupted its meaningless now. I am back to using women liberation...woman woman woman...whenever and always sex instead of gender. I don't care what gender someone is...it's used euphemistically, by ignorant people, by people who think their biological sex is a feeling. It's just not a useful or valuable term. Since 2nd wave feminism the term has embraced extreme gender stereotypes, girl power botox, all that tosh; sexually provocative laddettes ...just lost the plot. So that's meaningless too.