Woman

Gagjo I do not think that any adult person still with the genitals they were born with intact, should go into any space designated as meant for humans with different genitals to theirs. That is basic biology.

That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops, Refuges of all kinds, Hospital wards designated as biology specific - except as staff or visitors, prisons and any other place designated biology specific for reasons of physical privacy or protection.

Will that do? I am sure it could be revised, but I think it is as specifc as you required.

‘Facing your fears in a supportive atmosphere’. Well there’s a thought….
Do I understand the first sentence of your last post to tricia to accuse MOnica (and Doodledog?) of lying? And can you please explain what you mean by ‘a non operable trans woman’? To me that means a trans woman who is incapable of undergoing surgery or upon whom it is impossible to perform surgery. I suspect however that what you said is not what you meant. Why exactly would a man who genuinely wished to become a woman choose not have surgery to remove his male genitalia?

Can I ask just in case Gagajo doesn't who is going to check?

I completely agree with your last post MOnica (for what the agreement of an alleged bigot is worth). Very clearly and succinctly put.

I think they are probably just young people with trans and non-binary friends and relations, who recognise that this is actually to do with the people they love and care for just living as positive and productive life as possible, so they are just speaking up for, and with, them.

Ahh, the violins are playing, the light is low and there is the sweet scent of roses in the air. Really trish I am sure you can be more original than that.

No-one here has every suggested that trans people should not live as positive and productive life as possible, in fact no one is suggestion that they should ever be discriminated against in anyway in normal work and their social life.

All we have said is that, when it come to that unchangeable item in amost everyone, their biological sex, biological men with their tackle complete, no matter how they dress or what they call themselves, should not enter spaces dedicated to the exclusive use of biological women by reason of their biological needs for privacy, protection (read my post just above this), and vice versa.

I see you have been traducing me again, when did I ever say that surgery should be made compulsory for anyone. I would like the quote, complete with day, time and page, so that I can back check it. I no longer trust you not to edit anything you print, although I think all you have done is put a perverse and peculiar twist to the meaning of what I said. Otherwise you would have quoted it back to me by now anyway.

I am not going to be diverted into a defence of what I did not do in a previous post, nor of a discussion about what I did not say.

I have already explained my objection to the term CIS, but I will repeat myself again. It is a prefix that means 'on the near side of'. I am not 'on the near side' of being a woman - I am a woman. This is part of the problem as I see it - we can no longer use words to mean what we want them to mean. Words define concepts, and the very concept of a woman is now under threat. It's become Orwellian.

Yes, there is a distinction between transwomen and women - it's not that I 'seem to want some delineation' - transwomen were born male. That is not to say that they can't identify as having female gender preferences, or that they can't live their lives as they choose, but they are still male as far as their biology goes, and should remain so in sex-based statistics if they are to make any sense.

As for your last comment - it is difficult to believe that a woman could feel as you do. In counselling, the immediate concern is always to make the client as comfortable as possible. If someone has been bitten by a dog, are you suggesting that they should be counselled in a kennel as some sort of aversion therapy? That would almost certainly do more harm than good, and if the client did not give full informed consent the therapist would be lucky to be able to continue practising.

A rape victim is not going to be interested in being an 'interesting' debating point - she will want to be able to discuss her experience in whichever way she feels safe - not to be forced into some sort of 'reframing' process unless or until she is ready. I can't believe I had to type that.

If that last post is directed to me tricia, expert as you are on trans matters I’m sure you can provide explanations for those of us who can’t think of a valid reason why a man wishing to become a woman would choose not to have the constant reminders of his maleness removed if he can have surgery performed?

trisher

Can I ask just in case Gagajo doesn't who is going to check?

For Frogs' Sake!

If I may, M0nica?

On entry to hospital, I would think that there would be a need to check records and bodies for other reasons, so we can rule that one out as contentious.

Prisoners are strip-searched on arrival at prison, or so TV would have us believe. So that's that one sorted.

Professional sportspeople already have drug tests and so on, so a sex test could form part of that without too much hassle (if it is not done already). I don't know - can a urine test detect hormones in a way that is accurate enough to tell?

Checks could not easily be made in changing rooms and toilets, and would be counter-productive to an attempt to preserve dignity anyway, but so long as it is not obvious (and if it's not, no checks would be necessary) it is unlikely to matter. For the gazillionth time, nobody wants to make life difficult for transpeople. We want to protect women from men impersonating them. I don't care how rarely it happens - once is once too many, and if we have an 'open door' policy for all men to be able to say they are women, we may as well not have female spaces at all.

Refuges are more tricky, as few people arrive there with passports or any form of ID. Again, if a transwoman is in need of protection I would not turn her away, but if the partner of a resident turns up saying he identifies as a women and wants to be allowed in, I feel very strongly that there should be no element of doubt - there should be no question of his being allowed in.

Why do you need every post to be spelt out to you like this? Is it a war of attrition, or are you unable to conceptualise?

Do you know trisher, it doesn’t really matter what any of the rest of us post, except perhaps GJ, because if you don’t like it, you arrange a diversion, or you twist whatever has been said to represent something that wasn’t said in the first place or you accuse other posters of feelings, thoughts or opinions that they have not expressed.

When you reiterated at 13:04 “I sometimes think I really don’t understand any of you.”
You finally spoke a truth that I can understand.

Doodledog that is fine, I missed that sentence - and. yes, - women athletes do have to take testosterone tests and have to be below a certain count, which has caused real problems for some women with, I think, a genetic problem that means they have very high testosterone and acquire many male characteristics, especially strength and speed, which means they can outperform all other female runners. There is a South African female runner sadly, in this unfortunate position, but this is a medical matter not a transgender issue.

Perhaps an incident this afternoon is germane to this conversation. A delivery van arrived at the door. The driver was over six foot tall, one of those big burly men, must have weighed over 25 stone, legs like tree trunks burly arms covered with tatoos. When I answered the door I saw that despite the body, the head and face, plus voice were entirely female. They were friendly and helpful and beween us the two of us got all the MDF into the house, DH cannot lift things, we had a chat and then they went on their way.

What I remember was what a nice delivery driver this company had, and that is what you want and expect in a delivery driver, We had another delivery, that driver was equally nice and he took a photograph of my knees behind my parcel to prove delivery. I could of course say at some later time that they are not my knees or trousers.

Mollygo perhaps that's because what is being asked for is neither as unified nor as comprehensive as you seem to imagine. It's difficult to understand something when people who seem to agree on the surface have some deep seated differences.
M0nica wants toilets and changing roms in shops to check genitalia. Doodledog realises it's impossible.
That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops,
Checks could not easily be made in changing rooms and toilets, and would be counter-productive to an attempt to preserve dignity anyway, but so long as it is not obvious (and if it's not, no checks would be necessary)

They both apprently don't insist transwomen have surgery but won't let them use women's facilities until they do. and that apparently isn't being transphobic.

Doodledog If someone has been bitten by a dog, are you suggesting that they should be counselled in a kennel as some sort of aversion therapy? That would almost certainly do more harm than good, and if the client did not give full informed consent the therapist would be lucky to be able to continue practising.

A woman can live her life without having to come into contact with any dogs, it is unlikely that she can do so without seeing any men. Should it never be considered that besides dealing with her trauma, counselling should prepare the woman for life in the real world where she will have to interact with men?

They both apprently don't insist transwomen have surgery but won't let them use women's facilities until they do. and that apparently isn't being transphobic.

The 'apparently' here is snide and unnecessary, trisher. Both M0nica and I have said categorically that we would not insist on anyone having surgery (the idea is preposterous) and your persistent misreading of one post and returning to it in spite of this is unedifying.

You accidentally said something you didn't mean as you were leaving the house recently, and the matter was never mentioned again (or should I say, you 'apparently' meant to say that people didn't want to see people naked when you said that it was women who don't want to see it?)

You repeatedly ignore our questions and swerve them by asking us to clarify posts that are already clearly expressed, and pick up on minor points in our posts and worry them like a dog with a bone.

I did not say, suggest or imply that it should never be considered that a rape victim should have other counselling besides trauma counselling. What I do think is that no counselling should ever be compulsory, and to suggest that a female rape victim not wanting to be counselled by a man is 'bigoted' and should 'reframe her trauma' is a dreadful thing to say.

Here you go again, making things up again. I did not say M0nica wants toilets and changing roms in shops to check genitalia Evidence please.

An unreconstructed male is, usually quite identifiable as such, even when wearing women's clothing and make-up, but I think most biological men told that a certain facility was for biological women only, or reading a notice to that effect, would have the courtesy to respect it.

trisher if you post one more post that attributes to me things that I did not say. I will report you. I have tolerated a lot of deliberate misinformation about me, to allow this discussion to go on, but there are limits and you are pushing hard against them.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo I deeply resent your insulting post. I am not a bigot. Any fear, for whatever reason it is felt, is a fear. The link in Rosie’s post shows that such fears are not groundless.

I'm sure that there are white people who fear black people. Or straight people who fear gay people. It's still bigotry.

M0nica if you don't have checks how do you propose to implement this
Gagjo I do not think that any adult person still with the genitals they were born with intact, should go into any space designated as meant for humans with different genitals to theirs. That is basic biology.

That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops, Refuges of all kinds,

You really cannot tell what sort of genitals a transwomen has by looking at her.

GagaJo

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo I deeply resent your insulting post. I am not a bigot. Any fear, for whatever reason it is felt, is a fear. The link in Rosie’s post shows that such fears are not groundless.

I'm sure that there are white people who fear black people. Or straight people who fear gay people. It's still bigotry.

There are people who fear spiders. And people who are scared of clowns.

Neither of those things has anything to do with race, any more than GSM's fear does.

Your comments are deeply offensive, and if you had any humility you would see that.

trisher

M0nica if you don't have checks how do you propose to implement this
Gagjo I do not think that any adult person still with the genitals they were born with intact, should go into any space designated as meant for humans with different genitals to theirs. That is basic biology.

That includes toilets, changing rooms, whether in sports facilties or shops, Refuges of all kinds,

You really cannot tell what sort of genitals a transwomen has by looking at her.

So, if I follow your dubious logic here:

Monica has said that genitals should determine which areas people are allowed to access when those spaces are 'dedicated to the exclusive use of biological women by reason of their biological needs for privacy, protection, and vice versa.'

You decided that this could only work if someone checked.

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

You are misquoting her.

M0nica
another inaccuracy
think, a genetic problem that means they have very high testosterone and acquire many male characteristics, especially strength and speed, which means they can outperform all other female runners. There is a South African female runner sadly, in this unfortunate position, but this is a medical matter not a transgender issue.
There is no evidence that naturally occurring testosterone in any way influences performance. Artificial testosterone does, but these athletes do not take artificial testosterone.
Women come in all shapes and sizes. This post is not only sexist it's racist, black women athletes have some physical characteristics you apparently attribute to men.
Please read this www.sbnation.com/2020/4/20/21227661/caster-semenya-world-athletics-regulation-body-racism

GagaJo you have absolutely no idea do you? You are on this thread as trisher’s self-appointed cheerleader to be as offensive as possible, once again diverting

Doodledog Honestly is it that difficult to understand transwomen are not men. They do not believe they are men. They do not want to be men. They do not want to live as men. They believe they are women. They will use women's facilities.
This is a load of tosh and so much squirming and avouidng issues it is unbelievable

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

Trisher you have once again alluded to something which I ‘seem to imagine’.
What is it? I have stated my concerns about the erosion of women’s rights, about women’s safety in hospitals and prisons. I have clarified that my concerns are not with transwomen per se, but with those transwomen who wish to use their identity to harm women or to induce fear or distress in women already suffering.
You mention a minuscule proportion- I’m just asking for clarification. Do you mean it’s OK that only a small number of women could suffer or that you think even one woman harmed by a transwoman in the wrong place is one too many?

I’ve clarified my concerns and my attitude so many times, so what is it I ‘seem to imagine’?

(Posted too early) … diverting to black people and also now to gays. You have no intention of trying to understand my fear of being in a supposedly safe place with an intact man trying (but failing) to pass as a woman. You ignore my mention of the link Rosie posted and my question as to why a man genuinely wishing to become a woman would choose not to have surgery - as with other questions put by others to you and your team mate.

If male genitals are obvious here is Dominique Jackson who plays Elektra Abundance in Pose. She was born in 1964/5 has lived most of her life as transgender and had her gender affirming surgery in 2015. Do you really think you would challenge her?

It amuses me hugely by the way when I am accused of twisting things, while you all try to pretend you really aren't transphobic, post a load of inaccuracies, rely on impossibilities and apparently fail completely to understand the issue you are posting about.

trisher

Doodledog Honestly is it that difficult to understand transwomen are not men. They do not believe they are men. They do not want to be men. They do not want to live as men. They believe they are women. They will use women's facilities.
This is a load of tosh and so much squirming and avouidng issues it is unbelievable

Therefore, in your logic, Monica wants toilets and changing rooms in shops (sic) to check genitalia.

This is not what M0nica said. In fact, she went on to say that in most cases it would be obvious if someone were male, and in any case, most men would respect an instruction to stay away.

No, it is not a load of tosh. It is basic comprehension.

trisher, you are the one saying that checks are necessary and attributing that to M0nica, who said no such thing. I am neither squirming nor avoiding issues.

And yet again, as you seem to have misunderstood the countless other times I have said it, I have no problem with transwomen 'living as' women (whatever that means). What I take issue with is the chance that men (note, men, not transwomen ) will impersonate transwomen in order to nefariously impose themselves into women's spaces.

I do not think that women should have to give up the right to decide that in certain circumstances they want to be around other women (eg for rape counselling, in DV refuges, anywhere where they feel vulnerable or disinclined to be naked in front of men. If a transwoman is in a public loo, she will use a cubicle. If a transwoman is in a swimming pool, she can do the same, or keep on her costume until she is in private (and preferably wear something discreet, so that male genitals are not on display in the showers) and so on. There is no need for 'checkers'.

As you keep pointing out, the odds on a rogue male making a nuisance of himself in this way are slim. Your response to this is to say that women should take the risk that they will be the one to find him in their refuge, or rape counselling suite, or communal changing room. Mine is to say that it is better to prevent it from happening in the first place, and if that inconveniences some men, I would rather that than put women at risk.

I honestly think that most transwomen would say the same, as it is the fact that they are often conflated with the 'wax my balls' brigade that causes at least some (I would guess at most) of the prejudice against them.