Woman

Thanks for the non answer. I didn’t expect one so that’s OK.
The problem is that your ignorance about what we actually post makes it difficult to engage.
Why would I want to challenge Dominique Jackson? Use of threatening behaviour in women’s safe spaces? Exhibiting male genitalia anywhere, especially in women’s spaces?
What has Dominique done which makes you suggest I would want to challenge anything.

Doodledog If anyone is diverting discussions it is you.We were I believe discussing toilets and changing rooms in shops and pools. Not rappe centres, women's refuges or any other facility which routinely risk assess.
So could you explain to me how those facilities are to be denied to transwomen who have not fully transitioned, preferably without bringinginto the discussion protected places which are routinely risk assessed.

Mollygo perhaps yu could either state your own beliefs or stop trying to interject into a discussion you haven't so far posted anything about.

No, trisher. We were not just discussing toilets etc. This is and always has been a wider-ranging discussion than that. I was simply showing your attempt to discredit M0nica for what it was.

But anyway - IMO, it should be an offence for someone (whatever they believe themselves to be) to be naked or 'exposed' in a space that is reserved for the opposite sex. I would not designate cubicles in shops or traditional women's toilets (with separate cubicles) as reserved spaces, but the areas outside of them (eg the part of the 'Ladies' where the sinks and hand driers are, and the bit of shop changing rooms where people leave the cubicles to check the longer distance mirrors) should be for clothed people only, as should communal areas of swimming pool changing rooms.

In that way, transwomen could do as they usually do, and discreetly use facilities without comment, but it would not be ok for a man to insist on being in a state of undress anywhere that is designated 'female only'.

Refuges are a much more difficult area, and that is largely a result of the fact that they are massively underfunded and there is little chance that there could ever be separate facilities for transpeople in them; but they are places where women are incredibly vulnerable, so I think that, sad as it is, if a choice has to be made to exclude anyone, it should be women (as defined by sex) who take priority. With luck (although we shouldn't have to rely on luck) fundraising and campaigning will eventually make it possible for anyone who needs a place to have one.

Also, Molly has contributed to this discussion all along, and is no more 'interjecting' than anyone else, so that comment to her was unjustified and extremely rude.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

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I hope the thread doesn't go, but honestly, trisher, it's really not a case of Monica 'losing', you are getting increasingly unhinged.

You are taking no notice of what we post, and instead replying to what you think we've said, and are accusing people of saying things they have not said, as has GagaJo, whose treatment of GSM has been disgraceful.

I have said the same thing so many times, but you still keep asking for further explanations, accusing me of lying, of saying things I have never so much as thought - in fact things I have explicitly denied, and you do the same to others.

I appreciate that this is a subject close to your heart, and I believe that you honestly think that your opinions are based on principles that I probably share. I think that you are misguided, however, and whether you like it or not, I do have a right to that opinion.

I just wish that you would afford others the right to post in disagreement with your and be read and responded to honestly. It is not a game that will be won or lost, but when people see their posts ignored, their questions unanswered and their views insulted they are going to get annoyed - we can only take so much.

Doodledog anyone can post anything they like as far as I'm concerned however when they post abouttranswomen not accessing certain places because they have not had surgery, post about black athletes having male characteristics and believe they can identify transwomen just by looking I really despair.
And if M0nica is so sure of herself all she has to do is explain how the things she posts will work and how the things I post misrepresent her. Which she won't because I haven't I've used the things she posted and nothing else.

trisher I know you like to attribute thoughts that haven’t actually been stated to other posters so I’ll afford you the same politesse.
So trisher, I think you hope the thread will disappear because you cannot either accept that someone else is telling the truth or accept that you may be wrong. Disappearance of the thread would enable you to congratulate yourself and since you think others would be ‘losing’ no doubt you would see yourself as a winner.
Sadly because the concerns I’ve consistently raised whilst ‘not contributing’ look like they will go unchallenged by some myopic people, and unsolved, I feel there is no winner in this situation.

Mollygoif I really wanted this thread to go I could on numerous occasions have reported any of the posts which told me to "stop digging" called me "phobic" questoned my feminism or any of the other personal insults which are strictly against GN rules. I haven't. People may think they are telling the truth, but much of it is inaccurate and biased.. Perhaps if you wish to say something or explain any of the things which have been posted that I have argued against, a discussion could result.
I have always used the statements made on this thread to support my perception. of what has been said. I'm quite willing to adjust my views if anyone wants to post anything.
I now understand that whereas M0nica doesn't think any transwoman should be allowed in any woman's facility, like loos and changing rooms, unless they are gender reassigned Doodledog thinks it is OK if they keep their clothes on.
I still don't know your views on this.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo you have absolutely no idea do you? You are on this thread as trisher’s self-appointed cheerleader to be as offensive as possible, once again diverting

As I said before, I'm no ones cheerleader. I doubt trisher would appreciate me cheering for her even if I were so inclined. I'm not as rational, logical or polite as her.

I appreciate you may find me offensive. Which is of course, how I find the vast majority of this thread. Full of bigotry towards a tiny group of people who just want to be treated as if they are human. Tarring them with the faults of cis men, who are the group with by far the highest rate of violence towards any women, cis or trans. Hiding behind fear, in an attempt to dictate how other people should behave.

IF I had the time, I would particiapate more, but as it is, real life takes precedence. But it is however an open forum. So unless you take the discussion to a private space (WHY aren't you doing that anyway? It's what you all claim you desperately need) you will have interlopers.

Doodledog thinks it is OK if they keep their clothes on.

Isn't this your own view? If I could be arsed to trawl through 22 pages again I'm sure that I would find you saying so - if memory serves it was in the post where you said that people don't like being naked in front of one another, and that your local pool has a no-nudity policy in communal areas. Why are you presenting this view as being solely mine if not to be petty?

Where in GN rules is it strictly forbidden to question people's feminism? If anything you are the one who has done that from the start of this thread, using your usual dubious logic to set yourself up as the one who cares because of your self-declared 'good works' and 'lifelong devotion to the cause'.

You are right that there will be no 'winner' - it was never a contest. It is a difference of opinion, and whatever you may think it is you (and GagaJo) who have avoided answering questions, even when they were deliberately phrased so that all you had to do was say Yes or No. Every time you are asked a question, Gaga either flounces, saying she can't be bothered to talk to us or makes entirely unfounded accusations then ignores the responses that show the flaws in her argument. You ignore most of the salient points in all of our posts and ask us to repeat the same things again and again. It's exhausting.

In case I had misremembered, I have spent the last hour or so reading through the whole turgid thing, and believe me, the accusations ('bad feminism', racism, sexism, lying, Nazi sympathy etc) are coming from you, as is the avoidance of giving answers to questions. I have neither the will nor strength to do a proper content analysis, but if anyone could be bothered to do one I am sure that the stats would back me up.

I posted a link before, I doubt if any of you have read it. So here is a section from it. It should at the very least make you think about your preconceptions.

World Athletics remains committed to a centuries-old, white supremacist notion that defines “womanhood” in terms of the white, cisgendered female body, rendering everyone else, especially women of African descent, socially unacceptable abberations.

World Athletics describes its mission as fostering “athletic excellence” and enhancing sport to “offer new and exciting prospects for athletes.” Yet it has historically done so by enabling vile attitudes towards black women and the bodies they inhabit.

In 1897, just 15 years before World Athletics was founded, British missionary Sir Albert Cook, a medical doctor by training, wrote broadly and unabashedly about his ethically dubious biopsies of women in present-day Uganda, remarking:

“Who has not been struck by the extraordinary narrowness of the Negroid hip? Viewed behind in the erect position at the level of hips the female Negroid body is narrow and round as compared with the “broad beam” of the average European woman, and when the dried pelvises of each are placed alongside each other the explanation is obvious, the Muganda’s bone looks like that of a child in size and in the fineness of its structure.... The negroid races have a shape of pelvis which is intermediate between the protomorphean races and those of the higher civilised types.... The brim, as in the apes, is long­oval in shape.”
It is difficult to overemphasize how critical Cook’s now-disproven studies were in the development of racialized ideas around femaleness and womanhood, and ultimately the dehumanization of black women’s bodies. He would become a two-time president of the British Medical Association and was knighted by way of King George V after his studies of African women’s anatomy became popular. Cook exemplified to the colonizing world the “knowledge” that could be seized upon through engagement with the African “other.”

I think it is shocking.

No trisher and you’re never likely to because if I posted them, you’d say I had said something different, produce a diversion or even an analogy.
I’ve already said what I think about transwomen in changing rooms so I don’t need to repeat it.
‘Much of it is inaccurate and biased’ but you don’t feel that applies to you obviously.
With regard to feminism, I have already posted that you are allowed to have your view of what feminism is but it isn’t the only view nor necessarily the ‘correct view’ if such a thing exists. You asked me what I thought feminism means. I watched your responses to others ideas and decided it wasn’t worth my time.
Earlier on this thread I was happy to post my views, concerns and opinions on the subject. I found your constant attempts to divert the topic . . . diverting.
Now I mostly post reiterating what I have said, which is as true now as it was when I first said it.
If I read back through this thread, where would I find evidence that you are, “quite willing to adjust your views if anyone wants to post anything’.

I read it, Miss!

A lot of it was about the 15th century (or was it the 16th?) and I couldn't find any sources, or references that verified the science - it is an opinion piece on a page about American sport, as far as I could tell.

In any case, I don't think anyone is saying that you can tell a transperson by looking, unless of course they are in a wet swimsuit, in which case it is blindingly obvious, even to a 3 year old.

Which is not to say that the article isn't basically true. I was snappy there and shouldn't have been. I apologise.

It's just that, much as I know you are backing up your argument against what you think people have said, nobody has said it, and it is yet another diversion into an area that was never in dispute.

Why are we talking about negroid hips?
Who has posted anything about this and what relevance does it have to people wanting to change gender?

Why are you using cis? Sorry I know why so I shouldn’t have asked.

"As I have said previously, when in a communal dressing room most women are discreet and stand with their back to the room if a transwoman openly displays their male genitals in that situation one has to wonder why they choose to do that. Once again I ask you - do you not consider women and children should be protected from that?"

Another question trisher hasn't answered

Oldwoman70 I think I have, I asked how you knew the person was a transwomen. But it does raise the same question why do we think female bodies naked in front of children are OK but male bodies aren't? Lots of answers to that of course but thinking about it is good as it means we can challenge preconceptions and traditional gender roles.

Thank goodness we are behind the times here and have private changing rooms rather than communal ones. If I saw someone with their dick hanging out I would report them. A flasher is a flasher.

Mollygo I cut and pasted that from a link I posted after M0nica had posted about runner Caster Semenya banned for her high testosterone level(natural). I thought few people would read it (Thank you Doodledog) so I cut and pasted part of it.
I think it is interesting.
I think the basic concepts of female bodies is probably largely based on white women, just as most medical concepts are based on white male bodies. I think it is something which needs addressing.
I didn't use "cis" the writer of the article did, because out in the real world (distinct from GN) people are using it.
One of the arguments in sport about transwomen is that their narrow hips give them an advantage. I thought the fact that African women have naturally narrow hips is something to think about and the way it was used in the past was shocking.

why do we think female bodies naked in front of children are OK but male bodies aren't?
Probably because in itself a female body is not going to be used as a weapon? A naked woman is no more of a threat than a clothed one, whereas a naked man can be.

Before you point out that women have been charged with sexual crimes against children, these are very rare, and are different in nature from those of men - put bluntly, a woman cannot rape in the way that a man can.

Also, naked women and children are vulnerable because of their nakedness, for what boils down to similar reasons.

"I asked how you knew the person was a transwomen" Well I think if they were dressed as a woman and were displaying male genitalia in a changing room it would be a big clue

Why do we think women’s bodies naked in front of children are OK? Because they’re in the women’s changing rooms.
My DGC gets changed with his dad in the men’s changing rooms. It’s quite possible that the men let it all hang out and the boys don’t care. I don’t use men’s changing rooms so I don’t know.
If I went in there as a transman I’d use a cubicle. (Possibly for my own safety, but I’m not, so I’ll never know.) I expect the same courtesy from an unaltered transwoman. Those transwomen who strut into pools or changing rooms in their pants only are making it quite obvious that they are still men, so why bother claiming to be a woman.
You must go to some very strange pools if you think women stand round flashing their body parts. Women tend to turn their backs as they change or use cubicles.
Why did you suddenly start talking about race in terms of body shapes?

Those transwomen who strut into pools or changing rooms in their pants only are making it quite obvious that they are still men, so why bother claiming to be a woman.

How many of them have their been? Are you sure they are transwomen OR are they actually just cis men trying to abuse women? Because if they are the latter, trans people aren't the issue, it's just the regular old abuse men that it's always been.

And it's obvious why trisher was talking about race in relation to body shapes. It's because a poster up thread said transwomen could be identified at times because male bodies have narrower hips than women. Black women, depending on their origin ethnicity often have narrower hips. Therefore saying women have wider hips than men is a white centric statement and is exclusionary.