Woman

Ah, well. I have the advantage on you there, then. Many people do resent it - you'll have to take it from me if you have no experience, although you did say that the groups 'began by asking' people, which puts a certain pressure on them to comply or conspicuously opt out.

Why do you think about the idea that asking people to declare their pronouns is equivalent to the 90s trend fo 'outing' gay people?

“They seem to have led sheltered lives”
You have no idea what the group was, where they came from, why they were there and what their lives are like, but you make an assumption because they don’t fit your preferred profile for what young people think.
Am I surprised? No.

Doodledog

Ah, well. I have the advantage on you there, then. Many people do resent it - you'll have to take it from me if you have no experience, although you did say that the groups 'began by asking' people, which puts a certain pressure on them to comply or conspicuously opt out.

Why do you think about the idea that asking people to declare their pronouns is equivalent to the 90s trend fo 'outing' gay people?

The idea of people having to state their pronouns smacks of forced speech. How revolting.

Agree SueDonim I suggest the correct response in line with the 3 women weightlifting medallists is #nothankyou

Independent practitioners of what? motherhood, accountancy, cabdriver, fortune telling?

The recent case of Mridul Wadhwa is a perfect case of why transwomen, particularly those with a trans agenda, should not have access to women's spaces.

Mridul has worked in Scotland's rape crisis centres for several years. Apparently the Rape Crisis Centres were unaware of Mridul's trans status! Rising to CEO Mridul now is revealing some quite disturbing demands.

Women who require the centres services, are regarded as bigoted if they request a female supporter. Mridul feels that these traumatised women need their prejudices challenged. Mridul told The Guilty Feminist in a podcast

“ If you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma… but please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices.”

And in other news, Scotland is further down the road to trans inclusion than England. Today I read that teachers in Scotland will allow children as young as four to change gender with no expectation that the parents will be told of this plan. This completely flies in the face of parental responsibility and safeguarding.

There is a separate thread about Mridul Wadhwa, petunia.

I assume that the rape crisis centres didn’t begin meetings by asking for pronouns, though?

opps sorry doodledog. will redirect myself to that thread. i was so engrossed with this one, i took my eye off the ball.

No need to apologise, petunia. It’s easily done - specially when’ Active Topics’ is so unreliable- I just thought you’d get a better response on the other one.

So now being asked what pronoun you prefer is forced speech aand akin to being outed by force in the 90s. My we are clutching at straws.
Firstly in any group situation some form of address is necessary. It may only come up once or twice in a session but it would seem to me much more polite to ask first than to misgender someone.
Secondly you were perfectly free to say "I prefer not to say" if you wished.
It's absolutely nothing like outing gay people. It's more equivalent of someone asking if you are Mrs, Miss or Ms.
Indepenant Practitioners in a wide range of things Mollygo I prefer not to say exactly. But they were not employees so no compulsion from anyone.

Doodledog Thu 12-Aug-21 12:16:00
And you are still ignoring my post from yesterday.

Sorry, nope. As I've said on other threads, I'm not reading through 6 pages of talk. I read the last few comments and I'm not changing. This is a relaxing bit of surfing for me. Not a required task.

Also, as I have said before, you don't get to dictate how other posters behave or respond. By all means, spend all day on here. But I have other things to do. I dip in and out of GN when I'm having a cup of tea.

I think the pronoun thing is a polite method of inclusion. I support trans people but am personally sticking with 'she' & 'Miss'. But I'll call other people whatever they want and think it's respectful to ask. I dislike being called 'Mrs' so appreciate it when people ask and remember I don't like it. I don't like the assumption that all older women are married and I don't like the social pressure to make me appear to fit in to that social norm which seems to me to have direct links to the way trans people would like to be treated.

Wouldn't "I prefer not to say" be seen as being obstructive? I find my marital status to be totally irrelevant in 99.9% of situations, and would likely ask why you need to know. If you want to address me in a group setting, my given name will do nicely. I'd hope you'd not be talking about me when I'm present, but if you need to refer to me to a third party, again my given name will suffice. If you want to address written communication to me then my given name plus my family name would cover it. If you refer to me out of my earshot by a pronoun why would I care which you use?

Rosie51

Wouldn't "I prefer not to say" be seen as being obstructive? I find my marital status to be totally irrelevant in 99.9% of situations, and would likely ask why you need to know. If you want to address me in a group setting, my given name will do nicely. I'd hope you'd not be talking about me when I'm present, but if you need to refer to me to a third party, again my given name will suffice. If you want to address written communication to me then my given name plus my family name would cover it. If you refer to me out of my earshot by a pronoun why would I care which you use?

Not in the circles I move in Rosie51 it would just be accepted.
The problem is when you are doing say an ice breaker where you have a short time to find out about the person next to you. You then introduce them and say something about them- So this is X and X likes cats recently X went on holiday to Greece. The name gets a bit repetitive

Unless X's like of cats and recent holiday to Greece in some way defines them or is totally relevant to the group I'm happy to skip that. I prefer to get to know people socially in a more normal way. If it is an official meeting then none of that is relevant, their expertise in the area may be, in which case X is our representative for xxxx. If the name gets a bit repetitive, doesn't the pronoun also get a bit repetitive?

It's called ice-breaking Rosie51 it's there to build connections between the people attending. If you are there for half or a whole day thee wil be other opportunities for socialising and during those times you may want to connect two people with similar interests and once again you would usually use pronouns.

Really this absolute denial of the basics of English grammar just because you don't want to admit to the use of pronouns and that there is a choice is ridiculous.

I’m fine with pronouns. He she it are singular. We, you, they are plural.
His hers it’s are singular. Our, your, their are plural.
I don’t care if other people want to be grammatically incorrect, nor, in case you were thinking of it, do I need a lecture on the evolution of language to suit a small faction of people.

Actually, France and Germany have already invented new pronouns for non binary use. France is wrestling with the need for agreement with adjectives e.g. il est heureux /elle est heureuse. I suspect it will end up just using the male form. We’re just behind.

Plenty of people I know dislike ice-breakers in their working world. They find it embarrassing especially if they have social anxiety and don’t like speaking to groups. Why should you have to give people information about yourself?

Also, as I have said before, you don't get to dictate how other posters behave or respond.
That’s rich, after the demands you made to me, complete with shouting to BE CLEAR and so on.

I doubt that anyone is on here all day - most probably dip in and out - but if you ask a direct question and are given an answer, it is only polite to respond. You really do set yourself up as above the common herd, don’t you?

On the subject of icebreakers, I dislike most of them - particularly the ones that ask for personal information to be revealed to people you don’t know and may never meet again after the end of the session. When I run things like that I use very generic icebreakers (if I use them at all) which ask non-threatening questions that allow participants to reveal only the information about themselves that they wish to reveal.

In an interview situation, however, I think that it is different. Employers and managers need to know about certain personal information in order to fit the right person to the role.

SueDonim I don’t like them, but in primary teaching it’s easy. On courses, I used to say my name and year-group and sometimes my school. By the time 30 teachers had said that, I only remembered the people next to me, the tall bloke who said he teaches EYFS and maybe the teacher who looks too young to be out of school. We don’t do it anymore.
You learn far more chatting over the break.

Doodledog did I say anything is compulsory or that anyone is looked down upon or castigated if they choose not to share? Of course they aren't. It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory". It does make me wonder what sort of worlds you inhabit and why you feel the need to pick holes in one ice-breaker which was one example of where a pronoun might be needed. I really can't see how it is more inclusive not to ask and to risk using the wrong pronoun.
I do wonder what you would do if in one of these sessions you were running someone complained because you misgendered them. And why the prospect of doing that doesn't seem to worry you at all.

If I misgendered someone, calling a ‘man’ with a beard ‘he’, and he corrected me or a female looking lady ‘she’ I’d just apologise if they corrected me. If they want to introduce themselves to avoid that, fine. Presumably they’d afford me the same courtesy if I don’t want to offer information about myself.

trisher

Doodledog did I say anything is compulsory or that anyone is looked down upon or castigated if they choose not to share? Of course they aren't. It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory". It does make me wonder what sort of worlds you inhabit and why you feel the need to pick holes in one ice-breaker which was one example of where a pronoun might be needed. I really can't see how it is more inclusive not to ask and to risk using the wrong pronoun.
I do wonder what you would do if in one of these sessions you were running someone complained because you misgendered them. And why the prospect of doing that doesn't seem to worry you at all.

It is just so sad that your only way of responding to anything is "well that doesn't happen" and then :well if it's compulsory".

I think anyone who has read this thread will know that this is a very unfair comment.

I'm not 'picking hole in one icebreaker'. You used the 'icebreaker' as an example of how 'your circles' begin group discussions. You used it in order to try to make Mollgo look less wordy than you, which was snide and unnecessary.

I think that asking people in front of others to declare a pronoun is intrusive. I think it is far from inclusive, and is assuming a great deal about people's willingness to share personal details with others.

If someone asked me to use a particular pronoun then of course I would. I would not take it upon myself to push them to do so though. And if someone complained about accidental misgendering (which would be highly unlikely unless they were behaving maliciously) I would deal with the situation as and when it arose. The prospect doesn't worry me at all.

Worldy, not wordy!

Mollygo

If I misgendered someone, calling a ‘man’ with a beard ‘he’, and he corrected me or a female looking lady ‘she’ I’d just apologise if they corrected me. If they want to introduce themselves to avoid that, fine. Presumably they’d afford me the same courtesy if I don’t want to offer information about myself.

You would Mollygo because I imagine you're a considerate neurotypical person. I fear for my grandson in today's climate. He is neurodiverse with learning difficulties, ADHD and severe autism. Like a great many people with autism he doesn't lie. If he sees a person with a beard, say eg Alex Drummond, he will call them he and believe it is a man, and he'd not be wrong about Alex being male. People with severe autism will find the concept of gender identity extremely difficult to understand. I think some posting on these threads would want him thoroughly castigated and punished for the crime of misgendering. No thought for his struggles at all.

Will my grandson face a prosecution in the future for simply telling the truth as he perceives it?
www.womenarehuman.com/autistic-teen-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-asking-police-officers-sex-autism-group-condemns-prosecution/
If being misgendered causes such fear in a PCSO you have to wonder if they're really up to the job.