Woman

Argh!
*there, not their
*abusive, not abuse

GagaJo a great many posts on this thread, including mine for which I have been pilloried by you and by trisher, refer to men who are not trans women but men who are dressed as women. You now appear to accept that such men exist. This thread has never been about fully transitioned trans women. I have asked why a man who genuinely wishes to be a woman would choose not to have surgery to remove his male genitalia but received no reply. I ask the question again.

GagaJo at 13:53 yesterday I took the time to respond to a hectoring post from you that demanded answers to questions about what I ‘want’.

You have not afforded me the courtesy of a reply. If you could get around to doing so while you’re here, that would be great, thanks.

Germanshepherdsmum

GagaJo a great many posts on this thread, including mine for which I have been pilloried by you and by trisher, refer to men who are not trans women but men who are dressed as women. You now appear to accept that such men exist. This thread has never been about fully transitioned trans women. I have asked why a man who genuinely wishes to be a woman would choose not to have surgery to remove his male genitalia but received no reply. I ask the question again.

Are you aware that the wait for an INITIAL appointment at a gender reassignment clinic is upwards of 4 years in the UK? Not for surgery. For the first appointment. Obviously, there are many requirements after that, psychologists appointments, hormone therapy, the requirement to 'live in' the new gender. Plus of course, the surgery waiting list.

Even for someone desperate for the surgery, the wait is many years.

But of course, not everyone wants the surgery. They may stop at the hormone treatment. And we are not to dictate what people do with their bodies. My vagina does not make me a woman. It makes me biologically female, but being a woman is a cultural, social, historical, psychological thing. I'm not particularly feminine. In another culture, maybe I wouldn't be a woman, maybe I'd decide I was two-spirit.

I don’t think I know a single person who is what is called ‘typically feminine’ or ‘typically masculine’. Does that mean that we are all ‘non-binary’?

I think we probably are, and this is why I lose patience with the ‘live as/present as’ a woman thing.

I appreciate that this is not the same as feeling misgendered, but I do wonder how many people end up on roads that are different to get off because of a misplaced expectation that all men, or all women somehow think, act or feel the same.

I would still like a response to my post, though. Or were the questions just posed to waste more of my time answering the same things over and over?

Isn’t this why the term ciswomen is used? It means a person who is born a woman and identifies as a woman.

Doodledog, 'living as' is a requirement of the GRS route. It is a hoop they have to jump through.

It's very ironic. Because having huge fake silicone implants put in ISN'T policed. Neither is labia surgery. Because they are all reinforcing dominant feminine (unrealistic) ideals. But try to change gender and the gates of surgery clang closed.

GagaJo my question was why a man wishing to be a woman would choose not to have surgery. You have said not everyone wants surgery. Why would that be? If you want to be a woman why would you want to keep your male tackle? If a man wants access to a space reserved for women then as has already been said, that should not be permitted with intact male genitalia. But I have no desire to set that hare running again.

Because GRS surgery is extremely complex and frequently doesn't give a good result. Frequently not a functioning result.

So if someone is UNABLE to get surgery, you want to deny them? Uh huh.

GagaJo I imagine most surgery of the kind you mention in your last post is carried out privately. Not all, but the vast majority. Such surgery should of course be regulated but hardly needs to be policed. Diversion again.

But I don't "identify" as a woman, I just am one. I know I'm a woman because of my biology. I have no idea what other women feel like because I can't enter their heads and emotions, I just know how I feel. It may be my feelings are more often found in men, but how would I know? I despise the use of the word cis, it demands people collude with a belief system, which would not be demanded if it was a traditional religious belief.

GagaJo

Doodledog, 'living as' is a requirement of the GRS route. It is a hoop they have to jump through.

Yes, in that context it is, but the concept is meaningless, as is ‘presenting as’, because there is no ‘true’ way to be a person of either sex (or gender for that matter).

My point is more that people can ‘live as’ or ‘present as’ the opposite sex without insisting on ‘being’ that sex. It would take a shift in normative values for society as a whole, but would be liberating for everyone.

That shift is happening Doodledog, much as the gender critical like to kick and scream.

And you are still ignoring my post from yesterday. Selective engagement with a thread, such as picking up on one part of my post of a few minutes ago but ignoring the one I made in direct response to an aggressive question from you is rather rude to everyone who is posting, particularly when you have been politely asked for a response.

No kicking or screaming from me. It’s not my style.

I didn’t read about Caster Semenya because I thought it was another diversion. At the time, I felt sorry for her. Tall, 15stone, muscular and strong women like the friend someone mentioned on here are more noticeable, but now I wonder whether it gave failed male athletes an idea of how to succeed.

Men-even abusive men tend not to go into women’s changing spaces. Most men, because they can read and they have no interest in causing any woman distress or even simple embarrassment, and abusive men because that would highlight their likelihood of causing trouble.
As has been said before, transwomen who do not wish to make it obvious that they still have male body parts,
whether because they are in transition,
or because they are unable to have surgery
or because they do have respect for the gender they aspire to be,
would use a cubicle.
Transwomen who advertise that they are still men despite the name change should not be in women’s changing rooms.
Women, (natal women, I know you prefer cis, so you can use that term if you can’t bring yourself to use the term ‘women’) should not have to justify why that should be so.
I’m fascinated to read that African women have naturally narrow hips. Change it to ‘some African women have . . . ’ and there is evidence to back that up. As a generalisation it’s exactly that.
Now
I’ve just spent the last 3 days with 21 young people 16-25 and 2 couples in 30’s-40’s.
It’s not a proper survey, but it was interesting.
I asked for their help in filling in a questionnaire and, knowing what I do, they were happy to help. I did suggest it was done anonymously, which it was, but the noisy discussion afterwards really meant I needn’t have bothered with anonymity.

Q1. Do you think it’s better to call a group of girls or women or a group of men or boys ‘people’?
Q1a. Are there any circumstances where groups just being called ‘people’ would cause problems.
Q2. Do you think pregnant women should be called pregnant people or something else?
Q3. Do you think mothers and fathers should just be referred to as parents?
Q4. Do you think women and men need to be referred to by any additional term, e.g. trans, or cis?
Q5a. How do you want to be referred to when you give birth? chestfeeder, breastfeeder or something else?
Q5b. How would you want your child’s female parent to be referred to? chestfeeder, breastfeeder or something else.
Q6. Do you think men or people with male genetalia should be allowed in women’s changing rooms?
The answer to question 6 on paper was different from the subsequent comments in some cases.
On paper 30-40 year olds all said No. 1 said if they were trans and used a cubicle I suppose it would be OK.
16-25 year old girls said No. In the discussion they added things like “That’s creepy”, or “I don’t even let my dad in my bedroom” or “Pervs! They’re just there to ogle”
16-25 year old boys said No. Afterwards they added things like,
“Not if my girlfriend/sister/ is in there.” or “Yes, think of all those naked women!” or “Not if my mum’s in there” or “Why would they want to?”
When I pointed out that the person may be trans, the vote was split with about half still saying No and the others saying, get a cubicle.
Q1. They said people only if it’s a mixed group.
Q1a-the most telling response was from a 21year old girl who thought it would be wrong to send her into a room full of people without warning her they were all men.
Q2. All ages, male and female wrote pregnant women.
Q3. Parents was acceptable in general and for 16-18, but the over 18’s and the 30-40’s wanted to be referred to as mothers or fathers when that applied/would apply to them.
Q4. The 20-25’s and 30-40’s had heard the term cis. The under 20’s asked for clarification. Most said “Whatever you want to call yourself”. 6 said trans was OK if you were, but otherwise why not just be a man or a woman.
Q5 caused the most hilarity.
The results were totally No for chestfeeder with some unprintable comments.
The under 20 girls said that women were breastfeeding mothers not breastfeeders and those who didn’t just said they were mothers. The under 22 boys kept demonstrating sticking their chests out to ‘chestfeed’. On their forms they just wrote ‘mothers’.
The rest of the group chose ‘mothers’, though one male member of the 30-40’s group said it was disrespectful to refer to a woman as a function.
I’m quite sure a properly conducted YouGov survey, or even a random Google survey could produce a different outcome, with more directional questions, but this was a spur of the moment idea because of the size and range of the group. We were socially distanced except when outdoors.

GagaJo I am talking about men who choose not to have surgery. Choose to say they are women but keep all the male equipment. How is that being a woman? Of course there’s also Alex Drummond, living as a woman for years, bearded, no intention of having hormone treatment or surgery in a bid to change the way we think about trans people. I assume you’d be entirely happy to see him in an all-female space because he’s living as a woman and calling himself a lesbian?

Well done MOnica. I find that interesting and encouraging. Some others may say something else entirely ….

It is interesting. I particularly like the references to boys sticking out their chests, and their teenage bravado?.

Still nothing from GagaJo, more than 24 hours after I bothered to reply to her post insisting that I produce a list of 'wants'.

I am not a cis woman or a natal woman. I am a woman. I have been through menstruation, sometimes painful, the discomforts of pregnancy, and very painful childbirth. My babies were breastfed by their mother, not chestfed. Eventually I like many others have gone through menopause.

I don't want anyone to be unhappy with who they are and a man who wishes to live as a woman I have no problem with.
He, however, can never be a woman. There are ways for transwomen to live alongside women without invading their space and I believe many of them would prefer to be private themselves.
There is a transwoman, who I know uses the disabled toilet that is separate to the men's and women's toilets rather than use either of the others.

I like to "live and let live" but not if it impinges on the security and comfort of others.

The size and range of the group may seem exceptional to you Mollygo but they seem to have led sheltered lives. I've said before even before lockdown most of the groups I attended began by asking people their preferred pronoun, mostly 'he's and she's but a few in the 20ish age group asked for "they".
A few of the younger people who e-mail me now have in their signature "preferred pronoun"-and then he, she or they.
Maybe it just shows that we move in very different circles.

I don't know what sort of circles you move in, trisher, but I see that all the time (the 'preferred pronoun' thing), and have been told off the record several times that people resent it, but have been told to do it by work (in email signatures) or feel that others expect it of them (on Zoom names), and that they (young people) don't want to give offence.

I don't use it, perhaps predictably. I really don't see the point when I am there. If people can see me on Zoom, or in a face to face group and my name is on the screen or I introduce myself, why do I need to add 'she/her'? I don't presume that people will want to talk about me when I'm not there, but if they do they can use my name.

Just before lockdown I was at a meeting/workshop, and there were maybe 10 women there. The facilitator asked us if there was anyone who did not identify as female. Why? It wasn't a workshop about gender, or anything remotely connected to it. It really didn't matter how we identified - it was just a 'thing' she did, possibly to give a particular impression, or possibly to tick a box for some sort of accreditation.

Nobody came forward, but if they had, it would really have drawn attention to them, and there was no way of knowing whether a non-female-identifier would have wanted to be exposed in that way. Not all transpeople are extraverts, and many have very definite privacy boundaries.

I didn't like the 90s fashion for outing gay people against their will, and this insistence by some employers that people do so has those undertones, I think.

I know several women who have questioned HR about being asked to declare their gender in email signatures, and not one has been told she has to - despite having been told to do it as though it was a requirement. I suspect Stonewall of being involved and insisting on it as a condition of getting their badge of approval.

A lot of the people I meet are actually independent practitioners -so no pressure from anyone just their own ideas. The pronoun thing usually happens before the ice breaker, you know where you have to introduce/tell a story about the person next to you. I've never been asked any other personal details