Woman

I have never needed to look at anyones genitalia to know their sex. What on earth are you doing?

I know Julian Clarys sex, I know Eddie Izzards sex, etc etc.

We stayed in a hotel last week where there were many male-bodied people wearing female attire. I had a first class view of the lavatory entrances from the restaurant table. ? All of the female-presenting people used the gents toilets, not one went into the ladies. No one coming out of the gents seemed to come to any harm, I didn’t hear any fights or any trouble.

I have to say, when I went into the ladies loos, I would not have wanted to explain to a small child the various items that were littering the floor. ?

No you don't you know the gender they present as. You have (I assume) never seen the evidence to prove their sex. You assume it because they present in a certain way.

SueDonim I don't suppose most people are at risk in hotel toilets. Unfortunately you can't say the same for all of them.

I dont need to see genitals to know peoples biological sex. It must make life extraordinarily difficult if you do.

Sue, I have been in the toilets at gay venues. Women used mens (queues are shorter). Men used womens (mirrors are better). Shock, horror. Nobody cared.

I don't see how not knowing someone's sex would complicate your life, UNLESS you were planning on having sex with them Galaxy. I can cope with interacting with men, women and those of them who are somewhere inbetween.

What is this obsession with looking at people's genitalia?

In answer to the 'what should we do' questions - we can do what we did for years, which is make it an offence for a man to be in a single sex female space. If the man is 'presenting as' a woman, and is not making a nuisance of himself there will be no consequences, but if, like the transwoman in the communal female changing room at a friend of mine's local baths (where he caused consternation amongst the mums and toddlers), he is clearly and obviously male, then he could be charged with indecency, or threatening behaviour or 'something' - add a separate offence if necessary and/or delete as appropriate.

This transwoman could have changed in a cubicle, or attended a mixed session, but chose to be there, in a state of undress, on a daytime session for mothers and toddlers.

Interestingly, GJ still hasn’t answered my question.

I am glad you can cope with interacting with both sexes gagajo, as can I, I am not sure what that has to do with single sex spaces.

Actually, MG, I've addressed it twice.

A lot of alcohol had been consumed, so I’d have thought toilets anywhere including hotels could have been an issue. There were many female-presenting men in town all weekend and I didn’t notice any of them being hassled anywhere so it’s hard to see what transwomen need protection from.

No you haven’t GJ.

SueDonim A list of people known to have been killed because they were transgender en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender
Hate crime in the UK www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370
Is that enough or would you like more?

Galaxy you accept the sex people say they are. You have no proof of that or any way of verifying it. To say you do is just ridiculous. There are instances of people who lived their whole lives as one sex and only after they died was their true sex discovered.

There are instances of people who lived their whole lives as one sex and only after they died was their true sex discovered.
Well by the sound of it they wouldn't have posed a problem, so if the suggestion I made a slightly upthread were taken up, they could still go about their business.

If, on the other hand, they decided to attend a female swimming session as an intact man, and use the communal changing room, then they would run into difficulties. I assume, however, that the people you mention would have done nothing of the sort? If they had, there would have been no question of people assuming that they were the sex they said they were - my friend's 3 year old was able to tell that the 'lady' was 'like a daddy'.

The core of this post is the depersonalisation of women and male to female trans-sexuals usingfemale spaces. Nothing is said or discussed about female to male trans-sexuals or male roles being depersonalised and I continue to think that this is an insidious attempt to reassert male domination over women. by reducing us to things, as happened in former times to slaves.

I don’t see any problem with transgender people using facilities appropriate to their chosen gender if they have undergone sex change surgery. Men dressing as a women, doesn’t make them women, and vice versa, so why should they be allowed to use facilities not intended for their gender ? IMO it’s a safety issue more than anything else.

*There are instances of people who lived their whole lives as one sex and only after they died was their true sex discovered.
Well by the sound of it they wouldn't have posed a problem, so if the suggestion I made a slightly upthread were taken up, they could still go about their business.*

I've read several accounts of this. Terrifying. Unable to seek medical care when ill or even dying for fear of retribution when their secret was uncovered. If you don't believe me, read about Leslie Fineberg and the treatment faced when trying to access healthcare. Or Billy Tipton, who died alone because of fear of his secret being discovered.

Are we saying a trans person is only safe if they completely pass? Because with the pushing back of treatment until late teens (as is happening now) once people have gone through puberty, sexual characteristics are more defined and harder to change.

It seems to me as if the intention is to make it as hard as possible for trans people to be themselves.

All this policing of gender. If it really was natural, surely we wouldn't need to make it so hard for them?

It seems to me as if the intention is to make it as hard as possible for trans people to be themselves. This innocent 10 year-old girl just wanted to "be herself" too.

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket.

Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March.
She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.

And, despite knowing that Dolatowski was a violent sex offender:

It was revealed by the Dundee Courier that through the Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangement (MAPPA) with police, NHS Fife and the Scottish Prison Service, Dolatowski had been placed in a hostel for vulnerable female offenders, despite being convicted of sex offences and not having a gender recognition certificate (GRC).
A spokeswoman for Women and Girls in Scotland said: “Katie Dolatowski has already taken advantage of access to female spaces to commit sexual assault. “It is absolutely unacceptable that this person was being given the same opportunity again.

Women and children's safety being compromised again to accommodate men.

Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.

Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire.

Karen White, a child abuser who dressed as a woman but was still legally a man, was jailed for life in 2018 for sexually assaulting two prisoners at HMP New Hall and the rape of a woman while he was outside jail.

Increasingly, I find when out and about, particularly in restaurants, we are often greeted with "Hi Guys", I know some don't like this expression, I don't mind it in the least it's used as a greeting pretty much by all the younger members of our family. I'm wondering however, why the widespread use of this collective noun hasn't been picked up by a person/people/organisation as unacceptable, and why not, as some women may find it very exclusionary, but hey they are only 50% of the population "Hi people" surely! At least those monitoring the ever changing use of language in the interests of inclusivity should be consistent in their pedantry!

I could Chewbacca copy and paste all the incidents of transgender people being murdered because of their gender. I don't because as far as I am concerned dreadful as they are individual instances of violence only skew the argument.
I would point out that violence against transgender people is increasing and all those who choose to post or highlight incidents of someone using transgender as a means of committing a violent crime are fanning the flames of transphobia and contributing to the capacity for violence against transpeople. Just as vigilante action is not really helpful in dealing with paedophiles this "I'm not transphobic but" attitude isn't helpful with transgender issues.
Transgender people are here, they are going to stay here, they have been here for a long time. Deal with it reasonably and stop condemning them because by doing so you are contributing to the rise in violence and death.

Deal with it reasonably and stop condemning them because by doing so you are contributing to the rise in violence and death.

That cuts both ways don't you think trisher? I won't "condemn" when women and children are safe in what's supposed to be a safe space for women and children. But those safe spaces are being removed because men say that we don't need them.