Tenants in common or joint ownership?

Pizzle, I will send you a pm.

Thank you Nannarose, I will certainly have a look at this.

Pizzle - whilst bearing in mind all that Germanshepherdsmum says, I think it might be worth you looking at the following:

www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-registration-services-fees

I have recently done 2 first registrations on my own, without a solicitor's help. It is neither expensive nor difficult, you just have to take your time. The Registry are very helpful to members of the public.
That would mean that the 2 houses are at least registered as belonging to you & your sister. That is your first hurdle.

I think that means that is quite easy for you to leave your share to your partner. If not completely satisfactory, it sounds better than the current situation.

I don't think I have overstepped any boundaries here, and wish you luck.

PS: one of the properties I registered had deeds dating back a long time, I just took my time in assembling everything.

Germanshepherdsmum

It really concerns me that people on GN ask others here for legal advice and that totally unqualified people are happy to dish out advice. I’m a retired solicitor and some of the well meant comments are really worrying. I have seen people say ‘I used to work in a solicitor’s office’ or ‘I have a law degree’ and proceed to pitch in with ‘advice’. Please, if you have a problem of a legal nature consult a solicitor. It doesn’t have to cost a lot but not doing so can cost you dearly.
Shandy you have worried Pizzle, perhaps quite unnecessarily. There is nothing in what she says that would make me leap to the conclusion that her late father’s estate had not been administered. The right approach is to first ask if we are right in assuming that the two houses were left to her and her sister jointly rather than one each, and if the houses are in England or Wales has their ownership of the houses been registered in their joint names? If so the next step is to look at the registered titles online (land registry.gov.uk) - cost £6 per property. If the titles say that no dealing by only one owner may be registered there is a tenancy in common and in the absence of evidence to the contrary the law will assume ownership in equal shares. If there is no such note it’s a joint tenancy. Following on from this it’s essential for the sisters to take proper legal advice about what’s best for their individual circumstances and have appropriate wills prepared.
Lostsoul my condolences. You absolutely must see a solicitor about this.
LilacChaser it sounds as if your wills aren’t going to do the survivor any favours. It doesn’t have to be like that. Do talk this over with your husband and then discuss with a solicitor revisions which will ensure that neither of you is left in such an invidious position.

Thank you, Germanshepherdsmum, I was getting worried! To answer the points you raised, the two houses were left to us jointly, ie not one to me and the other to her. The properties are not registered with the Land Registry as I understand this was not a legal requirement when my father died in 1981. I spoke to the solicitor who dealt with my parents’ legal affairs, to ask about the process of putting the house my sister lives in in her name and the house I live in in my name. They advised that we would need to get the properties registered first and that stamp duty would be payable as I would effectively be ‘selling’ my 50% interest in her property to her and vice versa, and then we would incur capital gains tax on the 50% being ‘sold’. There is the added complication that the house my sister lives in is of a higher value than the house I live in and, as neither of us have any idea how much all this (plus separate solicitors’ costs) would be, but suspect it would run to many thousands which neither of us have, means we have done nothing about it for years even though I would dearly like to move. We just feel totally stuck with no idea how to resolve it before the inevitable happens to her or me - at which point the other one will have the problem to deal with and our respective partners (her husband and my more vulnerable not husband) wondering if they will still have a roof over their heads. Our solicitor told me to consult an accountant about all this, but he quoted me £350 per hour to deal with it, which is way above what we can afford! As I said, totally stuck!

Wishes we have done the same as Tenants in Common, we have set up a trust both leaving our own share to our son but still being in control and being able sell.. we did ours with a solicitor

I would also add that it is not worth speaking to Citizens Advice about complex legal issues like wills. Have a look at information on their website for general advice, but for specialised personal advice on a particular situation, they will direct you to see a solicitor.

Germanshepherdsmum - I have a similar issue with some health advice. However, I think there are times when 'unqualified' advice can be useful - anecdotes help you to think about things and hear different points of view which can help in working through some problems.

I think it is fair to say that it is not always clear on what basis people give advice, and it is always important to consult professionals. However, hearing all the experiences around this issue can be useful - just not to be confused with proper legal advice.

I personally always ask around before making legal decisions, so I can think about possible scenarios before I pay a solicitor for their legal advice.

It really concerns me that people on GN ask others here for legal advice and that totally unqualified people are happy to dish out advice. I’m a retired solicitor and some of the well meant comments are really worrying. I have seen people say ‘I used to work in a solicitor’s office’ or ‘I have a law degree’ and proceed to pitch in with ‘advice’. Please, if you have a problem of a legal nature consult a solicitor. It doesn’t have to cost a lot but not doing so can cost you dearly.
Shandy you have worried Pizzle, perhaps quite unnecessarily. There is nothing in what she says that would make me leap to the conclusion that her late father’s estate had not been administered. The right approach is to first ask if we are right in assuming that the two houses were left to her and her sister jointly rather than one each, and if the houses are in England or Wales has their ownership of the houses been registered in their joint names? If so the next step is to look at the registered titles online (land registry.gov.uk) - cost £6 per property. If the titles say that no dealing by only one owner may be registered there is a tenancy in common and in the absence of evidence to the contrary the law will assume ownership in equal shares. If there is no such note it’s a joint tenancy. Following on from this it’s essential for the sisters to take proper legal advice about what’s best for their individual circumstances and have appropriate wills prepared.
Lostsoul my condolences. You absolutely must see a solicitor about this.
LilacChaser it sounds as if your wills aren’t going to do the survivor any favours. It doesn’t have to be like that. Do talk this over with your husband and then discuss with a solicitor revisions which will ensure that neither of you is left in such an invidious position.

Hmm, we're tenants in common but have a problem. If DH dies, there's no way I can afford to live in our current house. But, if I downsize, any profit from the sale of the house will be split between our children and myself.

LilacChaser DH and I are in the process of making our wills and I had that scenario for our solicitor.

We are T in C. On the first death we will have to set up Trusts as stated in our wills. Half the house and savings will go to the AC in a Trust. Say it's me that's left, in the Trust AC will be named as the beneficiaries (they cannot touch anything until we both die) and myself a trustee.

Importantly, I will retain complete control of DH half and can use it as I see fit. AC will get what's left when I pop off.

I believe trusts can be expensive to set up.
I still have more questions for the solicitor which I will ask when we see him again as I want it iron clad that this can happen the way he says.

LilacChaser

Hmm, we're tenants in common but have a problem. If DH dies, there's no way I can afford to live in our current house. But, if I downsize, any profit from the sale of the house will be split between our children and myself.

Trouble is, with the difference in price between houses and bungalows being very small, I would only have enough profit left over to pay for the costs of moving and none to do any work on said bungalow.

Think carefully of ALL the pros and cons before deciding.

We’re in a similar position.

We’ve taken out an insurance policy with death benefit that goes to the survivor. That should cover moving costs and a bit of work on the new place.

Or maybe start building up a moving fund in a joint account?

Lostsoul - I too have come across this, and there are ways around it - maybe someone on here can help.
I'm not sure how carefully you have looked into this - but a relative of mine was in a somewhat similar situation. My apologies if you have already gone this route.

If you have evidence that your son's father had estranged himself, then you MAY have a case for being declared the sole heir. If this happened whilst your son was a minor, and his father paid nothing towards his upkeep, never bought gifts or visited etc. you have a good case. Even if later, you may still have good evidence.

I also understand that if he cannot be located, you can come to some arrangement that would allow you get your half (quarter of the house) and his being 'held'.

I suggest that if you can afford it, consult a solicitor (you can sort out the 'free 30 minutes' to begin with). Or consider Citizens' Advice Bureau, or a local Law Centre.

You would also need good advice on passing your share on to your son's partner as it may be construed as 'deprivation of assets' but you may be able to set up some sort of trust. It depends on individual circumstances.

i hope you can sort something out.

Oh Shandy, you’ve got me worried now as my dad died 30 years ago so it’s been a long time already!

Hmm, we're tenants in common but have a problem. If DH dies, there's no way I can afford to live in our current house. But, if I downsize, any profit from the sale of the house will be split between our children and myself.

Trouble is, with the difference in price between houses and bungalows being very small, I would only have enough profit left over to pay for the costs of moving and none to do any work on said bungalow.

Think carefully of ALL the pros and cons before deciding.

When my OH died there were a few worrying days when I did not know where I stood on this. Thank goodness all was well as we were joint tenants and he had written a will.

It is worth checking all this out before you lose a partner to save the worry.

PIZZLE it sounds like your situation would still have to be sorted out in respect of your parents it's still their Estate.
Get some legal advice as after a certain amount of time other things nay come into play!

Bijou
With respect I don’t think you understand the OP.
It has nothing to do with trust but everything to do with the law of inheritance.

This thread has given me food for thought. My sister and I inherited two properties from our parents. I was already living in one and, a year after our father died, my sister moved into the other. They are not of equal value. There is nothing in our paperwork that indicates if we are joint tenants or tenants in common, so I wondered if one or other is automatically applied in this situation. Thank you for your help.

Thank you Shandy3. I think that’s the reason for my nervousness - because it’s not ‘automatic’ in the same way.
For obvious reasons I’m quite nervous about everything at the moment and I just need to calmly work out the best ways forward.
I couldn’t believe this thread popped up today when it’s been playing on my mind.

Yes Barmeyoldbat I wish I had read the tiny writing too, as both my sister and I both signed the forms trusting we were being told the truth that everything would be fine.
In the end it was me who had to pay because when my sister was approached about paying her half and she just said no she wouldn’t be paying anything, I was told I had to pay all of it regardless the fact my sister as the oldest signed it first I was told by the council that I would have to pay all the top up,or move her to a much cheaper home which I wasn’t prepared to do.I have never signed anything since without reading every word,comma and full stop.I have never found out why my sister was allowed to say no but I wasn’t ( not that I would have )

Great question and will be relevant to Me at some point...
Thank You

LOVELYLOVELY
If you pass to each other you will own 100% of the property on your husbands demise providing that is stipulated as an intention in his will and that it could not now be contested by any other party. Yes joint tenancy would mean the title of the property, would automatically revert to you in the same circumstance. Do what you feel is best, explain your concerns to your solicitor with allthe information they can best advise you.
I wish you all the best for the future, you have tough times ahead, take care.

LOSTSOUL
I've come across this on many occasions too, it's truly tragic and worrying for the remaining partner.
I do hope that at some point it is sorted in the way you'd like it to be x

I've mentioned this on here before and will so again, that regardless of either way drawing up a title deed there can be problems.
Firstly Tennants in Common is good for ensuring the equity in the property for the % you own will go to the person(s) you want it to.
So for example if you were a 'joint tenant' and you died it would go to your wife/husband/partner, if they remarried/a new partner moved in the law sees you as financially 'joint'. If your husband/wife/partner then dies the money/equity moves to the new wife/partner, which then takes the money out of the original family. I've worked in an environment where I've see much of this and the children from the original relationship don't inherit anything, this includes if there have been wills in place! Remember wills can be contested and are frequently!
Therefore drawing up a title deed as 'Tennants in Common' ensures your % can be written into your will as passing to your children/whomever. If the will is then contested it shows more of an intention of your wishes, it's both in the will and on the title deed, and therefore more likely to be adhered to. Providing you also add the intention for your partner to live in the property until such time as they die this protects their living arrangements.
Additionally to this I would say TALK to your beneficiaries, that way they won't 'expect' a lump sum on your death, because they'll know your wishes beforehand, this could prevent a person contesting your wishes.
Belts and braces in all instances are what is required!

My son died suddenly of a heart attack aged 38. He and his long term girlfriend (no children) owned their house as tenants in common. Trouble is he died with no will. His share under intestate rules should pass to me and his father (my ex) He was was not in touch with his father whom wanted nothing to do with him. (or his other child my daughter) No one is aware of his address or indeed his whereabouts.
I would gladly find a way to give his girlfriend my share. However if we could find his father I am sure that he would want his share. This would force the sale of the house.
So if you are going for tenants in common MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A WILL

For sure make your decisions made on good legal advice and maybe a new will if needed
Fil and mils house was joint but one of them was suffering with dementia, the other was persuaded to seek legal advice and changed to tenants in common with a new will, leaving their half to their children, wanting the survivor to stay in he house for the rest of their lufe
In the event the survivor was incapable of living alone so had to go into a care home and died several months later.
In my situation I was left by my long term husband and our house was owned jointly.
I was advised to sever the tenancy and make a will leaving everything to my children and saying that in the circumstances I was leaving the husband nothing
Had I died before these were done then the house would have automatically gone to him, and should he have married the younger woman on his death unless he made a will it would all have gone to her
Not your situation but something to bear in mind for someone else maybe
It was the first thing I was advised to do