What's this scheme called please

Kate
It’s all here and written so that we can all understand it.

helpandadvice.co.uk/tenants-in-common/

volver

Barmeyoldbat

And that’s why I intend to help them in anyway I can

What, even to the extent of defrauding the tax man?

Fair enough. ??

I do apologise if people think I'm being curt but this is such a big thing to me. It's unfair, it's possibly illegal ( GSM? ) and I don't think it should go past without comment. If we want to help younger members of our families, give them the money now.

Got to agree with volver here.

This is something that drives me nuts. It's just wrong. I have a friend, or I should say had a friend, who did anything and everything to try to preserve her '*inheritance*. Just drove me mad how much thought and energy was going into this.

Anyway, we've told our children to never rely on inheritance. If we both dropped dead today they'd be laughing, but we don't know what the future holds.

ElaineI

There are differences between Scotland and England. Don't know about Wales or N.Ireland but DSil unravelling the rules as his DF is going into care and house jointly owned by his father and mother. She still lives there. House will not be taken into account but his half of savings will. She will get half his work pension but all his actual pension is used and he will get £23 or so pounds a week for sundries. This is in Scotland.

Yes this is my understanding of the system here in Scotland .

I’m unsure though how much in savings is allowed?

Enough for bury you I’d hope?

Potentially it’s fraud, and any attempt to give away assets in order to avoid them being included in an assessment for care home fees or any benefits will be traced. People think they can get away with it but they can’t and won’t. Money or other assets can be given away if you can prove you didn’t do it in order to avoid care fees. The older you are, the more difficult it is to prove. If you survive for 7 years they won’t be deemed to be part of your estate either, subject to various conditions.

In my book it’s completely immoral and parasitic to expect others to pay for your care whilst you syphon off assets to your children. And as I said, it will be found out and the investigation and questioning will be far from pleasant. You will get the treatment you deserve for trying to defraud the taxpayer.

DH only spent his last seven weeks in an excellent nursing home, paid for out of our savings and subsidising residents inadequately funded by the local council, but we have savings precisely in order to make choices when we need to. If I live to a great age the house will fund me and the children will get what, if anything, is left. We equipped them for life with excellent and expensive educations and provided the deposits for their first venture on the property ladder so anything else will be a bonus though I do hope to leave something to the grandchildren. That all feels fair to me.

Just to add that Tenants in Common can will their share of the house to whomsoever they wish. It doesn't have to be the other tenant.

We took legal advice on all this and we were advised that it’s was all above board, so are you telling me that the legal profession has got it wrong.? No it’s not fraud by any stretch of the imagination, is it any different to keeping your vast amounts of money on shore so the tax man can’t touch it.? As for helping members of my family now I am afraid I can’t, the small amount of savings is being used to supplement treatment that the NHS should be providing but don’t or take to long to provide leaving me to rely upon morphine.
But don’t worry Volver you won’t be paying for me to be in a care home because I shall never ever go there
Kate I would say go ahead and get the advice from a solicitor, you you will find it’s not fraud

Barmeyoldbat

Jut because keeping money offshore is, in your eyes, unfair, that doesn't mean you get to do things that others think is unfair, or fraudulent, with impunity.

If you can't help out members of your family now, but your assets can help them after your gone, then clearly you want to have your cake and eat it. You want to profit from your assets right now, and you want your descendants to profit from them after you've gone, but you absolutely don't think that anyone else should get their sticky little hands on them, after all, you worked so hard.

If you need to be in a Care Home, I would be glad for my taxes to support that. As I am always glad that my taxes go towards a better society and I have always been proud to pay them. Not, like some people, to conceal my assets so that I can get something over on my fellow citizens.

And if you want a solicitor/legal advice, you would be well advised to listen to GSM.

Barmeyoldbat

We took legal advice on all this and we were advised that it’s was all above board, so are you telling me that the legal profession has got it wrong.? No it’s not fraud by any stretch of the imagination, is it any different to keeping your vast amounts of money on shore so the tax man can’t touch it.? As for helping members of my family now I am afraid I can’t, the small amount of savings is being used to supplement treatment that the NHS should be providing but don’t or take to long to provide leaving me to rely upon morphine.
But don’t worry Volver you won’t be paying for me to be in a care home because I shall never ever go there
Kate I would say go ahead and get the advice from a solicitor, you you will find it’s not fraud

Not the legal profession, just your solicitor.

GSM does know what she is talking about.

I think that Germany has just introduced a tax which is ring-fenced for possible care in the future. Not everyone will need to go into care, of course so it is a type of insurance like other insurances we may take out.
We all may pay house insurance, car insurance but we don't all claim. However, if we do claim, it may well be for a substantial sum so it would be covered by other people's insurance money as well as what we ourselves have paid.

If the spouse or civil partner is living in the house it cannot be taken into account when assessing care costs
Is there a charge on the estate after the death of the other partner to recoup those costs?

I asked previously but I don't think it's been answered.

I'm with GSM but what happens if you suddenly become incapable? No-one else could help.

Sorry if that seems long-winded, I am just catching up on this thread which is very interesting.

Bar hold at, regardless of the differences express by posters, I am concerned that you haven’t perhaps received the best advice or had all the ramifications of having half your house in trust on the death of one of you.

I wasn’t sure if your son would be the trustee alongside another or the beneficiary of the trust but I hope you are aware that the trustees are bound in law to act to the benefit of the trust. For instance thiscould mean the half of the house that belongs to the trust being put up for sale even if you are still living in it, if it is deemed the most beneficial thing for the trust. Certainly the trust would be bound to charge you the market rent for their half or could even rent their half out to someone else.

Did you have all this explained to you?

Barmyoldbat is what I typed!

Callistemon, no there is no post death charge if it was not taken into account initially.

I think the English Government website is really clear. But I think you are in Wales?

Barmey, you and your husband changing ownership of your house from joint tenants to tenants in common (I presume in equal shares) is perfectly fine. Nobody's saying it isn't. It is not the same as giving assets away. You or your husband would be assessed for care fees on the value of half the house. Each of you can leave your half to whoever you want in your will, but that only takes effect after you die. In the meantime, care fees can eat up the half share you own. Also, if you want to downsize and your husband has gone into care, if he has become mentally incapable you won't be able to sell without appointing a second seller. Maybe someone to whom your husband has given power of attorney, other than you. You would only be entitled to half the proceeds of sale to buy another house. Has your solicitor explained all this to you?

Lathyrus

Callistemon, no there is no post death charge if it was not taken into account initially.

I think the English Government website is really clear. But I think you are in Wales?

Yes.
I suppose I should check.

I’m going on a bit now. But I’m also worried that people don’t seem to realise that if they are funded by the LA they won’t have any choice about care homes. Not only will they be put in the cheapest but the cheapest could be miles and miles away from their home and relatives. They could have a very miserable last few years and the stress on their relatives having to drive miles and miles to see them could be enormous.

A dear friend of mine spent her last year in a horrible place, old and gloomy, on a busy noisy road, sometimes not even got out of bed, cheap meals with little choice and horror of horrors communal laundry so she was dressed in underwear and nightclothes that others used too.

I did my best to alleviate some of that but the 80 mile round journey meant it was hard to visit as often as I would have liked.
All so that she could pass some on.

So so sad than in 2022 our old and very vulnerable are treated in this disgusting and insensitive way.

Awful experience.

German………mum yes it was all explained to us just as you wrote. We have been tenants in common for some years now as before marriage we were living together and I had given up my house and put the small amount of money I made into his new home. It gave me some protection. We put the trust in place when we made new wills, he has no children. We understand about the trust etc, also if Mr B goes first and I am left I will then be sharing the ownership of the house with my son. I understand it all and at the moment I am happy with it, it is not fraudulent as other posters have indicate and we took advice from three different solicitors.

Just to put another point of view. If you only have £20 left then you have probably been supporting the economy by buying goods, keeping people in work and paying vat far more than the person who has saved all their money.

Good point Tizliz

On this topic I wholeheartedly agree with volver and GSM. ?

Kate1949

Not to me it wasn't. I'm a simple soul. Or a bit thick!

With you there Kate. Too many keyboard warriors spitting feathers about what they consider is right - as usual. You only asked for advice - not opinions.?‍♀️

kittylester

Just to add that Tenants in Common can will their share of the house to whomsoever they wish. It doesn't have to be the other tenant.

I knew you were right, Kitty as we did that some years ago.

I’m not sure quite what you’re describing Barmey but it seems to be a trust in favour of your son which only comes into existence on the death of you or your husband. In that case, in the meantime the value of your individual shares in the house will be taken into account in calculating care home fees. So I don’t really understand what you think you’ve achieved.

We keep getting all these stories about mythical people who spend huge sums of money on wild living and then expect the state to support them in old age. Yet try and get some examples and it is very difficult.

I worked for Age Concern (as was) as a Home Adviser for 10 years and in all that time I met very few households that came anywhere near this definition and in each case it had nothing to do with conscious spending all their assets so they could live off the state, but rather the common or garden fecklessness that is found at every level of society.

Even then, there was usually a house in the background. One man did not discover until shortly before his death that his substantial occupational pension, included no widows pension and once he died, the pension stopped, leaving his wife on state pension and pension credit, another man had never got round to sorting a pension out, so once they had devoid themselves of limited savings they were left again on state pension and pension credit, both did have big houses.

There were one couple we helped when their children rang us in a panic seeking help because their very elderly parents were about to be evicted for not paying their rent and the children had discovered they had huge credit card debts. They did not have an obviously extravagent lifestyle, but money seemed to slip through their fingers to no particular effect.

As I said, I never met anyone who deliberately spent all their money to live on the state.