Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

foxie48 You must have heard the saying about money not making people happy. I don't agree with that because not having enough money for the essentials of life definitely makes people unhappy. However, it does appear that having money and obsessing about it can make people bitter and very unhappy.

Criminal defence work, other than for fraud and other white collar crimes, is not generally very intellectually challenging, foxie. Many people who choose a career in law want that challenge and, unsurprisingly, they don’t want to sit in police stations with undesirable characters at all hours or travel to magistrates’ courts all over the country to deliver a hopeless plea in mitigation. They also want to earn good money after years of study and with a student loan to repay. Not unreasonable.

GSM that is exactly what my son said when he was talking about going to the Bar. I asked him if he wanted to be a criminal barrister, and his reply was that it’s not challenging enough. He then went on to say that it doesn’t pay well because most of the work is Legal Aid. However the lack of challenge was the first reason given.

He is the first lawyer in our family and consequently I knew very little about it. I’ve learnt quite a bit now.

growstuff, using publicly funded services when you pay taxes to provide the funding is not ‘taking from the taxpayer’. It’s those who contribute nothing, or take out more than they contribute, who are the takers, with the exception of those who are genuinely unable to work.

I expect your post of 10.10 was a swipe at me. I am not bitter, nor am I unhappy, and I have never obsessed about money, contrary to what you might think, but I am concerned to keep what is mine, and not to have my property taxed in order to give money to those who won’t work, or won’t work hard enough to keep themselves and their families. Actually you always strike me as being very bitter about your own circumstances.

Germanshepherdsmum

*growstuff*, using publicly funded services when you pay taxes to provide the funding is not ‘taking from the taxpayer’. It’s those who contribute nothing, or take out more than they contribute, who are the takers, with the exception of those who are genuinely unable to work.

I expect your post of 10.10 was a swipe at me. I am not bitter, nor am I unhappy, and I have never obsessed about money, contrary to what you might think, but I am concerned to keep what is mine, and not to have my property taxed in order to give money to those who won’t work, or won’t work hard enough to keep themselves and their families. Actually you always strike me as being very bitter about your own circumstances.

Of course it's taking from the taxpayer!

PS. I wasn't swiping at all, just observing.

Thanks maddy. Unless you deal with a lot of big fraud and other white collar cases, there is no challenge. The only firm I worked with which did any criminal work had a well-regarded insurance fraud practice. None of them would have touched ordinary criminal work. It must be mind-numbingly boring.

Having different priorities in life doesn't make people mediocre, they just view life differently. Friend does quite a few murder cases (not that she discusses them) it may not be as "challenging" as some legal work but I know that she considers it very important that she provides the best legal advice and representation that she can as her work can have a great influence on people's lives for better or worse. She often works with people with difficult lives, mental health problems, a history of abuse or addiction, she sees and hears things that are sometimes very difficult to forget, it might not be considered intellectually challenging but it can be challenging in lots of ways that many could not cope with. Mediocre? No.

You don’t know much about the law do you foxie?

This might surprise you GSM, but I'm not in the slightest bit bitter. I worked through my feelings about the person who caused my present circumstances many years ago. I've never been happier. I've survived a heart attack and cancer, so am glad to be alive, thanks to the wonderful service I had from the NHS. I'm glad that my diabetes is well-managed too, thanks to regular check ups. I have a small, but supportive and loving group of family and friends. Apart from needing money to pay for my living expenses, there is nothing else I want.

foxie48

Having different priorities in life doesn't make people mediocre, they just view life differently. Friend does quite a few murder cases (not that she discusses them) it may not be as "challenging" as some legal work but I know that she considers it very important that she provides the best legal advice and representation that she can as her work can have a great influence on people's lives for better or worse. She often works with people with difficult lives, mental health problems, a history of abuse or addiction, she sees and hears things that are sometimes very difficult to forget, it might not be considered intellectually challenging but it can be challenging in lots of ways that many could not cope with. Mediocre? No.

It's quite sad that some people have such a disparaging view of their fellow human beings.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t come across in your posts.

Germanshepherdsmum

You don’t know much about the law do you foxie?

That's a bit condescending GSM I'm sure you can do better than that. Why not attack my argument rather than me as a person.

Just wanted to support Foxie's post on those who work in the Legal Aid system. No doubt some of them are mediocre as are those working in other areas but many have chosen it as a form of vital public service and accept its limitations on salaries. As for it being "interesting" or not, well, surely that's in the eye of the beholder?

Germanshepherdsmum

Unfortunately, that doesn’t come across in your posts.

show some compassion GSM.. these comments above are not what I expect from you..

how to get to the super rich? very tricky, the system favours them.politicians often in their pockets.Only a change in mindset from within the stinking riches brains is going to change things, when will that happen? Can it be imposed externally, no. The genuine vulnerable need support from the majority of us, as for the feckless etc even Karl Marx wondered about that one! A big problem one day hopefully to be solved.

Wyllow3

Just wanted to support Foxie's post on those who work in the Legal Aid system. No doubt some of them are mediocre as are those working in other areas but many have chosen it as a form of vital public service and accept its limitations on salaries. As for it being "interesting" or not, well, surely that's in the eye of the beholder?

Will they ever repay their student loans? Highly unlikely. To both be paid by the taxpayer and not repay your debt to the taxpayer is, in my book, unacceptable.

Perhaps GSM can explain how Human Rights Lawyers are paid. Arguably the most moral and idealistic of the legal profession is it also the best paid? Someone I know who went into that field did a placement at a very prestigious legal firm in London who dealt mainly with business litigation. One of the comments from someone working there was that she was too bright for them and would go far. She works in human rights law.
It would seem according to GSm's argument that the cleverest legal minds are also the most mercenary. I don't think that can be true.

Germanshepherdsmum

Wyllow3

Just wanted to support Foxie's post on those who work in the Legal Aid system. No doubt some of them are mediocre as are those working in other areas but many have chosen it as a form of vital public service and accept its limitations on salaries. As for it being "interesting" or not, well, surely that's in the eye of the beholder?

Will they ever repay their student loans? Highly unlikely. To both be paid by the taxpayer and not repay your debt to the taxpayer is, in my book, unacceptable.

But then student loans were just a political tool to try and gain votes. They were never economically viable and cost equivalent to the old grants system.

One always views life from one’s own perspective

We can’t afford free university education Glorianny. But those who decide to take a poorly paid job rather than earn decent money are getting free education by the back door.

"Many people who choose a career in law want that challenge and, unsurprisingly, they don’t want to sit in police stations with undesirable characters at all hours or travel to magistrates’ courts all over the country to deliver a hopeless plea in mitigation. " GSM

Thank heaven for those who see a different challenge - to mitigate the effect that those with lots of money, and lawyers who work only for the money they earn and the excitement of being part of an important case, can have on the representation of those of the "lower classes" who find themselves in the dock for something they didn't do, or couldn't help doing.

People who were sent to Botany Bay for stealing a loaf to feed their family would have been amazed at Legal Aid.

Germanshepherdsmum

Criminal defence work, other than for fraud and other white collar crimes, is not generally very intellectually challenging, foxie. Many people who choose a career in law want that challenge and, unsurprisingly, they don’t want to sit in police stations with undesirable characters at all hours or travel to magistrates’ courts all over the country to deliver a hopeless plea in mitigation. They also want to earn good money after years of study and with a student loan to repay. Not unreasonable.

That comment sums you up. Who knew that working in conveyancing means that you even sneer at the compassion shown by other members of your profession. How sad and what a price to pay.

If they don't earn enough to pay off their student loans that's doubly shocking, currently repayment start at £24,990, minimum pay for teachers is £30k p.a. Lowest for a criminal lawyer that I've found is £28k starting salary which is more than for an F1 doctor.