Neighbours and their child

If you had called my school, we would suggest that you phone Social Services and that we would not be able to discuss the situation with you, due to data protection or that it may be malicious. (Not saying you are.)

However, we would ourselves alert Social Services that there were concerns.
The school are probably already aware of concerns.

Cossy you could email the school, describe what you and your partner are hearing and witnessing on a regular basis, and that you are concerned for the little boy.

No, they won't be able to discuss anything with you, and you could acknowledge that you don't expect them to, but it will help them build a bigger picture.
It would also be a record of your concern.

"Safeguarding is everyone's concern" is a repeated quote from our childminding training courses.

This is a safegaurding issue. I personally would contact the school, ask to speak to someone who works in the Safegaurding/Pastoral Team ,and raise your concerns.
Haveing just retired from working as an Teaching Assistant in a Primary School,there are so many children these days that are suffering with all sorts of problems in homelife.
Usually problems they have at home,show in their behaviour at school.
Its usually a cry for help.
Pastoral teams are specially trained how to speak to a child without asking a direct question.
If they cant help or advise ,at least you have raised your concerns and they are aware.

I agree about contacting the school.
Ask to speak to the safeguarding lead and tell them your concerns.
They will log this on their internal systems as it probably won’t be long before this poor child comes to their attention!

Susiewong65

I agree about contacting the school.
Ask to speak to the safeguarding lead and tell them your concerns.
They will log this on their internal systems as it probably won’t be long before this poor child comes to their attention!

Have you not read the previous comments.?
The school cannot discuss pupils with people who are not the child's parent or guardian, for a multitude of reasons.

I would contact the police with your concerns and an itemised timescale of when these incidents have occurred, alternatively…

If there is a loud screaming match call 999 sighting a domestic incident with a young child involved.

Why the police and not Chuldren’s Services who are the lead agency in these difficult situations

Iam64

Why the police and not Chuldren’s Services who are the lead agency in these difficult situations

If there is an incident with shouting and swearing around the child, calling 999 will be immediate, they have to attend a domestic with child/ren involved.

What @silverlining48 says!!! Do not hesitate to contact NSPCC. They’ll advise.
The family is obviously unhappy and it’s seriously affecting the little one.
Even if you are mistaken, isn’t a child’s wellbeing worth more?
Not all abuse causes bruises.

As a still practising ISW, ex local autority child protection lead, I would say document to be clear about what you have heard and when. Observation of the child's reactions and the parents' response to your concerns.

Then complete the online referral with these details. There will be ongoing psychological harm to the child given what you say, frightened of the very people who are supposed to protect them. The younger the child the more life changing is the harm.

Children's services will not wade in unless there is a Police incident. They will initially gather additional multiagency information, such as parental histories, police files, school concerns and any other historical child care records. Then, if there is reason to investigate further, agencies will agree a joint approach.

I also thought ringing the NSPCC for advice as a first step might be helpful cossy.

Also definitely keep a record of incidents and if possible sound record them.

We recently moved in to a flat and have foreign neighbours. The husband speaks reasonably good English but neither the wife nor the little boy do. The child who is around 4 years old is so noisy. If he's not singing and shouting he is screaming and throwing a strop. When he runs around which is most of the time it is like we are living next door to an elephant. He is more often than not up until gone midnight, a few times it has been nearer 2am when he has stopped running around and screaming. A couple of weeks ago I heard the neighbour on the other side of the couple knock on the door and ask the husband if they could do something about the child making so much noise late at night. His girlfriend is due to have a baby and hasn't been well. The noise in to the early hours has stopped her from being able to get her sleep. It quietened down for a few nights but now it is back. It doesn't help that the child barely ever leaves the flat which is probably why he has so much energy. It's difficult to know what to do when you live in such close proximity. Things would almost certainly become awkward if we were to complain.

GrannyGravy13

Iam64

Why the police and not Chuldren’s Services who are the lead agency in these difficult situations

If there is an incident with shouting and swearing around the child, calling 999 will be immediate, they have to attend a domestic with child/ren involved.

Would police attend if you told them you had heard them shouting and swearing at their child? I doubt it.
Does the child appear well cared for, clean and well fed?
I agree that a call to NSPCC for advice could be helpful for you.

SueDonim

Is the partner the child’s birth father or a stepfather? That could also have a bearing on what’s going on. Very difficult for you, that’s for sure.

Both parents biological

Wyllow3

I also thought ringing the NSPCC for advice as a first step might be helpful cossy.

Also definitely keep a record of incidents and if possible sound record them.

Great idea, thank you

JaniePB

As a still practising ISW, ex local autority child protection lead, I would say document to be clear about what you have heard and when. Observation of the child's reactions and the parents' response to your concerns.

Then complete the online referral with these details. There will be ongoing psychological harm to the child given what you say, frightened of the very people who are supposed to protect them. The younger the child the more life changing is the harm.

Children's services will not wade in unless there is a Police incident. They will initially gather additional multiagency information, such as parental histories, police files, school concerns and any other historical child care records. Then, if there is reason to investigate further, agencies will agree a joint approach.

Thank you very much. I’ll monitor and then report.

I’ve done this before with another family for slightly different reasons, twice in fact with two different cases, both times social services were very helpful (I phoned, both were safeguarding incidents)

Obviously they couldn’t discuss the cases but they did make me aware in both cases that both families were known to them!

I just could not live with myself if any serious or fatal harm came to this child.

Difficult situation. When I was training as a nursery nurse I was in placement at a local primary school where my neighbour's children attended. All the neighbours knew she went out and locked children in the house. School reported her to social services when they called the house one day, one of the children answered and said Mummy was out. Of course Mummy immediately blamed me for reporting her!!.
Life became very difficult, eventually we moved.

With a background knowledge about social services etc, although a few years ago, I think that as soon as you contact anyone with concerns about the family social services will immediately become involved.

Last thing to do is for you to speak to parents. I would also do as a previous person said keep a record of where, when, who said what and date. As a retired teacher you then have facts to back up your concerns. I also agree if you know the school I would speak to HT to make them aware and they will monitor and, if necessary contact S Services. That way you are kept totally out of the loop. If you have serious concerns or welfare issues phone police... please do not under any circumstances speak to parents yourself,for your own safety. Hope this helps.

Mojack26

Last thing to do is for you to speak to parents. I would also do as a previous person said keep a record of where, when, who said what and date. As a retired teacher you then have facts to back up your concerns. I also agree if you know the school I would speak to HT to make them aware and they will monitor and, if necessary contact S Services. That way you are kept totally out of the loop. If you have serious concerns or welfare issues phone police... please do not under any circumstances speak to parents yourself,for your own safety. Hope this helps.

That’s interesting. When I worked with families in Early Years we were told that we should always speak to the parents and tell them we were contacting Social Services, as we were concerned for the child’s welfare, theory being that they would welcome help or support.
Mind you, that was as a professional rather than a neighbour, which would be a different thing.

Imo speak to social services asap absolutely no point of wishing you had done so when it's too late. You and your partner may be overreacting but sounds like you are concerned and only wanting the best for a child who may, perhaps be being ill treated. Yes, the parents may well guess that it's you who made the call but so what? A child may be in need of intervention.

Even if SS don’t take action they would keep a record of your concerns and further issues were raised in the future this be used as evidence

This is a difficult one, Cossy. Like you, I believe shouting at a child is as bad as spanking, but speaking to the parents again will not do the slightest bit of good.

They doubtless will feel and probably say that the language they choose to use is none of your business and neither is the way the bring up their child.

On this last point, you, I and many others beg to differ, as we do think it is our business if the child is being harmed, or is at risk of harm.

If you decide to alert social sevices, either do so anonymously or ask them not to disclose your name or the fact that you are a neighbour. But I think you need more to go on than frequent crying, parents¨bad language and the fact that they shout at the child, if there is to be any hope that social services can do anything.

DO NOT approach the child's school - they can hardly report something that is only hearsay to social services. But if the child is behind in his speech, the school is presumably aware that there might be a problem in the home. However, they neither can nor should discuss it with you.

I am not sure that the frequent crying is an indication that something is wrong - it could be, obviously, but children of four and even nine and ten, tend to cry these days. We were told at four or five, that we were too big for such babyish behaviour, but this has changed.

I believe there should be no deliberation on your part. Fear of suspicion is no reason to not report. Being unsure is no reason to not report. If a child’s welfare is in question it is incumbent on the observer to report. It is not up to you to decide. Your concern is reason enough.
In Canada:
‘Under section 125 of the Child, Youth and Family Services Act every person who has reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is or may be in need of protection must promptly report the suspicion and the information upon which it is based to a Children's Aid Society.’
‘The Act defines the phrase “child in need of protection” and explains what must be reported to a CAS. It includes physical, sexual and emotional abuse, neglect, and risk of harm.’

Thanks everyone for your useful input and advice and feedback.

I just know I’d rather be wrong and unpopular than right and do nothing!

I am not at all sure whether or not you should get involved other than superficially, and other than keeping a record of disturbing events. I can't see anything that tells us how long the family have lived there, so I ask how long has this behaviour been going on? The couple might
"just" be going through a bad spell in their marriage, or other things of which you aren't aware. I'd also think that shouting and swearing in the garden is unusual if the child is really being abused. Cruelty is usually kept hidden from the public. I agree, it's not the best way to bring up a child but is there any evidence that the child is suffering - e.g. is he overly-quiet (unless crying of course) or afraid of other adults?

As someone said, does he appear to be clean and nourished?

You could possibly "pretend" to be going out somewhere when mum or dad takes the child to school and see how he behaves when out of the house. Plenty of children sadly live their early lives indoors at the top of a block of flats and though it isn't ideal, it doesn't equate with abuse. Maybe mum or dad have health problems that you don't know about that contribute to their behaviour with the child.

As for bad language, the child won't understand what most words mean, but teachers will notice if he uses them in school. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean he is abused - though again it is not what most of us would consider to be acceptable.

You seem to have already agreed that keeping a record and/or trying to record the arguments, might be useful in the future. I'm not an experienced user of Gransnet but I would suggest that if things develope you should come back on here and see what folks think.