EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

Carlotta Not at all. I've simply read and responded to other peoples comments with thoughts on better facilities for women. Why do you think otherwise?

No Luminance what you've actually done is obfuscate and deflect; trying to pin posters down to ever more detalied reasons for them to not share their space with a bloke in the hope that you might change their way of thinking (today 19.18) You've vacillated between baby changing facilities and disabilities, infirmaties and queues, but you've been totally unsuccessful in changing mine, or the Supreme Court's decision that men are no longer welcome in a female's toilets.
You've repeatedly been told that there is one overarching solution to women being safe, comfortable and have accessible toilets and that has unequivocally been KEEP MEN OUT. That includes men with or without a penis/in or not in a frock, with or without a placard telling us that we're terfs. It really shouldn't have taken you 10 pages of posts to understand that.

Luminance

Quite Mollygo but I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with guidance for provision of usable bathrooms and why it would be an issue to elaborate on that for those who have commented here on changes that would make their own lives easier.

Exactly Liminance.

Carlotta

I've explained my reasons clearly enough for others to understand and agree with Luminance. I'm not going to hold your hand, explain in any finer detail or guide you through it; I'm not a prop or a handmaiden for anyone.

Well I think that the truth is that I support those women on this thread who have explained their own issues around the safety and accessibility of toileting facilities and I haven't mentioned anything at all for men because I don't actually know what those are. I think agreeing with your statements on face value is absolutely fine, I just question what it has to do with what I have said myself.

Quite Mollygo but I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with guidance for provision of usable bathrooms and why it would be an issue to elaborate on that for those who have commented here on changes that would make their own lives easier.

I've explained my reasons clearly enough for others to understand and agree with Luminance. I'm not going to hold your hand, explain in any finer detail or guide you through it; I'm not a prop or a handmaiden for anyone.

Who caused the need for the truth that males are not females to be stated in law and the need for female concerns to be considered?
Males and sadly, some females.

We have had our concerns considered, and it is now illegal for males to use women's spaces.

Result.

And however many times it needs repeating for those determined not to accept it.

We have had our concerns considered, and it is now illegal for males to use women's spaces.

Result.

Carlotta

Men. And I think Mt subsequent posts have fully explained why I think that.

What makes you think that based on any comments I have made on this thread that actually pertain to proposing anything for men in this scenario and not women?

Men. And I think Mt subsequent posts have fully explained why I think that.

Carlotta

Yes I would Luminance

For men or women? What makes you think that?

Baring in mind the lack of changing facilities in the mens comment actually pertained to that burden being forced entirely on women

Well it's not much of a stretch to understand why it's predominantly but not always women who change babies nappies is it? But for those emancipated men who are out and about with their babies, or single parents to babies, they could simply ask if changing facilities are not obviously available couldn't they? Men are really not the fragile, reticent, shy or backward people you imagine them to be. They're perfectly capable of fighting for what they want without handmaidens making excuses for them and fighting battles on their behalf. If they want baby changing facilities- ask for them, campaign for them. If they want facilities where they can cos play their feminine side and apply their lipstick without fear of getting beaten up by other men, campaign for them. And stop telling women that they have to give up their spaces, or have any responsibility to be a part of the solution; we really don't.

Yes I would Luminance

Baring in mind the lack of changing facilities in the mens comment actually pertained to that burden being forced entirely on women

Carlotta In general would you say my comments are problem solving for men or women?

Doodledog

Well said, Carlotta, and I'd add that it's not for women to tell other women what we should take into account when making a plan that accommodates men. As you say, let the men do some thinking about it and consider what we, as women will accept in women's spaces. They can also work out how their solution can be policed.

I know that some women enable men in their entitlement, but the last few posts have been unbelievable.

Well said Carlotta and for your addition Doodledog
I do wonder if the urge to problem solve for men that we keep seeing is an indication of something else.
There is no rule about what sex you need to be on GN and there are definitely women who enable or support men who do things that are unkind to women or even illegal, even posting on social media.

Luminance

It is of course entirely fair to say, I want no part in finding a solution to an issue I didn't cause. Yet it seems a far broader issue than that and I think all the women here voicing concerns should have the opportunity to have those considered going forward.

We have had our concerns considered, and it is now illegal for males to use women's spaces.

Result.

thefts under stalls make the dividing walls between the cubicles full length. Problem sorted.
being unable to use facilities due to age or disability, use the disabled facilities. Problem sorted.
women who find the wait time for women's facilities too long Well the queues will be considerably shorter and quicker if men aren't in them. Problem sorted.
Women with sons worrying about allowing them into the mens alone Depends entirely upon the age of the son doesn't it? Under 8 and I can't imagine any woman objecting to a little child going in with his mum. Over 8 and you can either stay outside the toilets and watch out for him, or use the disabled or unisex toilets where available. No problem.
women who feel tasks with more childcare fall to them with no changing stations in mens toilets. Baby changing facilities are, in the vast majority, a separate cubicle; neither male nor female. Even in tiny cafes, the signs on the doors are "male" "female" "baby changing" or just "toilet" with baby changing facilities inside. But if fathers with small babies recognise that they should have baby changing facilities too, that's another thing that they should be fighting for.

Luminance we've managed for many, many years to cope with our toilet facilities; queues, children, disabilities et al. What we haven't coped with is men in them. If men want to change their kid's nappies and their aren't the facilities in their toilets, they should start campaigning for them. Why do you have this urge to problem solve for men? They're grown adults who have full capacity and capability to get what they want or need without "the little woman" sweeping up ahead of them to make their lives easier. No wonder men have been so successful in getting women to move over, make room and shut up when some women are so desperate to take over men's own agency for them.

Doodledog that clip fully illustrates that India Willoughby is male. No woman would feel the need to scream those words like that. India advocated for barbed wire in the channel to rupture the boats bringing asylum seekers to our shores showing exactly the type of person he is, so that rant was completely in character.
I don't want any men in women's single sex spaces and at last the law has been clarified and it is written large.

It is of course entirely fair to say, I want no part in finding a solution to an issue I didn't cause. Yet it seems a far broader issue than that and I think all the women here voicing concerns should have the opportunity to have those considered going forward.

Sheer common sense, Carlotta.

Well said, Carlotta, and I'd add that it's not for women to tell other women what we should take into account when making a plan that accommodates men. As you say, let the men do some thinking about it and consider what we, as women will accept in women's spaces. They can also work out how their solution can be policed.

I know that some women enable men in their entitlement, but the last few posts have been unbelievable.

I think reading the stories of other women sharing here might change your mind on that. Women have shared frightening things that happened, thefts under stalls, being unable to use facilities due to age or disability, women who find the wait time for women's facilities too long while the men's stand empty and more: Women with sons worrying about allowing them into the mens alone, women who feel tasks with more childcare fall to them with no changing stations in mens toilets. Surely catering to that not only removes those issues but means trans people and bathrooms are no longer an issue at all?

The solution we had for a century worked remarkably well Luminance. It only stopped working when men with mental health problems decided to take over that space and use it for their own gains. They could, if they had chosen to do so, created a safe space within the men's facilities instead but they decided that it was easier if they just commandeered women's spaces instead expecting women to stfu and move over. To be fair, women have accommodated men in their spaces for rather a long time but, as more and more women have been attacked, assaulted and insulted, we've pretty much had enough of this nonsense and want it to stop. The Supreme Court ruling agrees with us so now men will have to figure out where they can go. It's not for women to come up with a solution for where men in frocks can go for a pee; we didn't create their problems; this is for them to resolve. Some of us are busy dealing with the fallout of what they did to us when they abused us in our safe spaces.

I understand that concern over trans women using these spaces is part of the thread but the issue of how to police that has been brought up many times and stories have been shared of men themselves violating that privacy without any sort of disguise needed. Many women have also shared their own opinions here on what a safe and secure facility is to them and it would be rather good if those who make these decisions took all of them into account and resolved as many issues as possible with a plan going forward.

Absolutely. Having a solution that suits everyone would be fabulous. I'd love to hear what it is though, as nothing that has been suggested so far would suit everyone, and I would suggest that anything that excludes males won't suit autogynephile transwomen. Other kinds of transwomen might be happy with unisex spaces that are safely positioned and self-contained, or with accepting their male sex and using the Gents'; but the ones who need to believe that they are indistinguishable from women won't be happy with that. We've seen people like India Willoughby refuse to use even unisex facilities as India believes that India is a woman, and screamed that belief in the face of octogenarian Amanda Barrie in Celebrity Big Brother.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsJxpvGzo3E