Learning to read

The more you read the more you learn to spell, especially if you learn visually. I 'm good at spelling and part of the reason is that I somehow see it in my brain when trying to spell a challenging word.

I wonder if the teaching of spelling at GD's school is not the best. Confusing spelling mistakes with dyslexia would worry me, if my child was in that class!
There are lots of rules ( and probably most with exceptions which can help or hinder.) I can still remember, for example,
'i before e, except after c, and when the syllable rhymes with t'
There are lots of books out there that may help.

MaizieD

Lathyrus3

It’s an oldie but goody in reference to phonics - the word

Ghetio

Gh as in enough
E as in pretty
Tio as in station

I've always seen that as 'ghoti'. It's utter nonsense, anyway as that combination would never be encountered in English words.

Except, maybe, in one of the government's tests on phonetics! [wink}

As a retired infant teacher, who taught many children to read, I say that phonics is necessary for learning to read and spell. The high frequency words become recognisable for reading through repetition of use , but for working out how to read and spell new words, it’s essential that children know the sound of each letter of the alphabet. I never used alphabet names. I reinforced the sounds constantly by getting the children to draw a picture of something beginning with a given sound. We also matched sounds to pictures, then began putting two sounds together, then three. Ongoing assessment was essential, as there was no point in moving on until a pupil had succeeded in these tasks. It’s also importan, in the early days to ensure that pupils recognise the common words out of context, not just purely from memory of the text of the reading book that they have been using. You don’t want children to be what I call ‘ whole word readers ‘ , as in only being able to read or spell by memory of, or guessing words that they already know, as opposed to being able to use sounds to build up and break down words.
Apologies for the long post!

Greyduster

I spend two afternoons a week in a local junior school listening to some Year 3 and Year 4 children read. They have all been coached in phonics, but quite honestly I don’t think phonics are helpful when it comes to sight reading in the reading scheme we are using. I can write words out for them using phonic spelling but the next time they see the word as it’s actually written, they don’t recognise it. I therefore prefer to write the word out, split it up into syllables and take them through the sounds a syllable at a time until they can put it all together. I make a note of any words they have struggled with and the following week we go through them again. I also have lists of words with silent letters, ‘soft’ and ‘hard’ letters (c and g for example), words with ‘gh’ in them, ‘tion’ etc. At the end of the day, it comes down to recognition and the only way to recognise words consistently is to read consistently. Unfortunately, there is no culture of reading for pleasure for many children these days and they don’t read at home, like my children and my grandchild did. Before I started doing this, I took the English language, which I love, for granted. In reality, it’s a complete nightmare😁! Try, for example, telling a child who has never seen either the instrument or the word before why cello is pronounced chello. It has opened my eyes to the difficulties that not only poor readers have, but those children for whom English is not their first language.

There are at least four ways the English letter word 'c' can be pronounced - cat, cake, ocean, cello. Not only that but there are homophones such as queue and cue. There are phonemes which have many different spellings: h*e*, p*eo*ple, k*e*y, bel*ie*ve, s*ei*ze, mach*i*ne, C*ae*sar, s*ea*s, s*ee*, am*oe*ba, which are impossible to learn with pure phonics.

I’m with Lathyrus3, and those endorsing and supplementing her comments.. Me too, a professional. An Ed Psych, my MSc was on literacy acquisition, done early years classroom teaching and then SEND up to and including post grads, and professional training. Not sure of the need for an assessment, Sarnia. It will cost a fortune and they may say your grandchild has some other issues as well as spelling. Check with their teacher re handwriting and coordination. Unlikely there are visual or perceptual problems if they are a good reader. They do need to be able to write legibly so they can read it back and then they also need to learn to proof read.Might be better to spend the money on a ‘broad’ teacher who properly knows about the different ways of encoding. Building with phonics is only one way of doing it. If a child likes the teacher and becomes more confident then they are learning, if the child doesn’t take to them, get rid, cos they will be put off for a long time. Important to see if their handwriting is slow, as there are implications for finishing tasks, and potentially extra time when it comes to exams…..but systems might change by then so I shall say nothing more on that. So do check fine motor coordination, check handwriting/handwriting speed and do get a teacher rather then an assessment. A good teacher can do a ‘running assessment’ whilst teaching, and save money instead of an assessment and teaching.
PS I LOVE LITERACY AND LITERACY TEACHING

How is "ough" pronounced/

growstuff

How is "ough" pronounced/

I was discussing this yesterday with DD who was teaching her overseas students the vagaries of the English language.

Sometimes dyslexia is considered, but it can also be a result of moving on to the next stage before the child is ready. If that happens, it leaves gaps. Teachers nowadays have to follow curriculum stages, within certain timeframes, which can mean moving on before some pupils are ready. I feel really strongly that reading should be ‘ child led ‘, as opposed to following a strict curriculum timetable.

How do you spell FISH?

GH as in enough
O as in women
TI as in station

GHOTI

My son, who has Down’s Syndrome, was taught to be a whole word reader, which is okay up to a point, but of course, has the aforementioned drawbacks. One day, he was reading aloud from the newspaper, and I heard him read the words
‘ cracker specials ‘, which I thought sounded out of context, so I had a look, and the words were ‘ cocker spaniels ‘! A perfect example of guesswork, when the skill of using phonics is absent.

There are phonemes which have many different spellings: h*e*, p*eo*ple, k*e*y, bel*ie*ve, s*ei*ze, mach*i*ne, C*ae*sar, s*ea*s, s*ee*, am*oe*ba, which are impossible to learn with pure phonics.

They're not impossible at all, growstuff. They just have to be taught logically over time. Common variants first, then the ones less likely to be encountered in everyday reading. Especially in the first few years of learning. Phonics 'should' teach children to be very aware of the different ways of spelling phonemes and to be adaptable when decoding. (I say 'should' because it can be taught badly)

P.S I'm not sure what your concept of 'pure phonics' is...

MaizieD

^There are phonemes which have many different spellings: h*e*, p*eo*ple, k*e*y, bel*ie*ve, s*ei*ze, mach*i*ne, C*ae*sar, s*ea*s, s*ee*, am*oe*ba, which are impossible to learn with pure phonics.^

They're not impossible at all, growstuff. They just have to be taught logically over time. Common variants first, then the ones less likely to be encountered in everyday reading. Especially in the first few years of learning. Phonics 'should' teach children to be very aware of the different ways of spelling phonemes and to be adaptable when decoding. (I say 'should' because it can be taught badly)

And how long would that take? Some pupils will just learn these as whole words. The issue comes when teachers slow these pupils down because they're not going through all the motions - and it happens. Sorry, I'm not knocking phonics, but there are other ways and my own experience is that some teachers and TAs have been so brainwashed by methodology that they don't know what to do when their methods fail. I've witnessed it as a parent and teacher.

“Ghost” letters present a lot of problems for some children: W in wreck, wrote, wrist, etc; K as in knee, knight, knot, knew; and especially G, as in Gnat, Gnaw, sign, reign and foreign; The ‘L’ in would, could, half, chalk, yolk, and salmon.

I love to see carefully constructed writing with due attention to spelling, punctuation and grammar. However, I also believe that it now doesn’t really matter, thanks to keyboard competency, spellcheck and other aids to communication in the modern world. What I hope continues are imagination in storytelling, comprehension of the written word and confidence in getting a well thought out argument across.

I take it you already know
Of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble but not you
On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.
Well done! And now you wish perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead, is said like bed, not bead -
for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!
Watch out for meat and great and threat
(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, or broth in brother,
And here is not a match for there,
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's doze and rose and lose -
Just look them up - and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward
And font and front and word and sword,
And do and go and thwart and cart -
Come, I've hardly made a start!

My daughter learned to read with the ITA system in the 1970s . She can’t spell for toffee

I help yr5 reading. I have to go back to basics with some children who are competent readers but not great at identifying sounds of new words. This is often because they really did not absorb phonics but learned (like many dyslexics) the shape of any number of words, and have the intelligence to work out by context, as a way of coping.

Do take any help she can get because some of that help will be useful even if she is not dyslexic, but if she is, then additional funding and support will be there, including extra time with exams

(My own DD has A level in English and a degree, but was only id'd as a mild dyslexic at 16).

Sight words and phonics are both necessary. Once the basics are learned, the teacher will move on to the double vowel sounds ie oo, ee, ea, then the other doubles ie sh, th, wh, ph etc, with lots of practice in words with these sounds. It takes time. Eventually, the anomalies will be covered!

Phonics are only one useful tool in the box of learning to read snd are a lesser tool when it comes to spelling.

Someone who has been taught the “rules’ might be able to decipher play, sleigh, sail, dale, veil, prey, even gaol🤔

But you will need a visual memory of a word and an understanding of its contextual meaning in order to know which alternative you need to spell a sound that makes up part of a word in a language like English that is only partially sound/letter compliant.

When there is a heavy emphasis on one approach, whichever it is, a proportion of learners will have difficulties. Given that there are different approaches to learning to read surely it makes sense to seek an approach that does work, rather than more of what clearly isn’t working.

Lathyrus3

Phonics are only one useful tool in the box of learning to read snd are a lesser tool when it comes to spelling.

Someone who has been taught the “rules’ might be able to decipher play, sleigh, sail, dale, veil, prey, even gaol🤔

But you will need a visual memory of a word and an understanding of its contextual meaning in order to know which alternative you need to spell a sound that makes up part of a word in a language like English that is only partially sound/letter compliant.

When there is a heavy emphasis on one approach, whichever it is, a proportion of learners will have difficulties. Given that there are different approaches to learning to read surely it makes sense to seek an approach that does work, rather than more of what clearly isn’t working.

I don’t think that the ‘research’ you’ve been involved with has been particularly good, Lathyrus if that's the conclusion you’ve come to.

Why have you put “research” in inverted commas. Surely you’re not implying it wasn’t real?

Or maybe you just can’t accept there might be anything that doesn’t fit your own views and invested interest and need to resort to trying to discredit.

That’s not unusual. Particularly in today’s educational climate.

Other posters can judge fir themselves what sounds genuine to them.

Whether you’re a phonics fan or a whole word fan or a combination of the two or any other strategy, a good way to retain spellings is to write them out.
That way your visual memory is supported by the actions of your hand as you write.
Just like learning to play an instrument, where eventually your hands automatically press the keys or the strings when they see or hear a note.
It’s different if you only type the letters and the brain has to establish a different way to support recall, but practice still helps.

My eldest child was taught phonics, my middle child was taught by whole words in a tin they brought home, my youngest was taught phonics and all DGC now learn phonics.
My middle child couldn't read anything until they were almost 7. A mother volunteer sat with them at school using the phonics method and 6 weeks later they could read almost anything. They were an advanced reader by the end of that school year, as were my other children who learned phonics.
The recognise and remember the whole word method was discontinued because many children didn't progress with it.
AFAIK phonics is now taught to all reception children, certainly where my DD works.
DGD brings home spelling to learn every week and is tested every Monday.

Yes, my grandchildren learnt quickly using phonics but also moved on to regular spelling tests fairly quickly after they's mastered the basics of reading.
I was very slow learning to read, I didn't like the books but quickly caught up when they put me on a different series of books.
My youngest daughter, much the brightest of my children, was the slowest to learn because the know-all headteacher dismantled the previously excellent phonics reading scheme that had been in use for my other three children.
Phonics is now recognised to be the way to go, and I can understand why they don't attempt to introduct "proper spelling" at the same time as it would be very confusing.