Employing someone?

Some, not all, of the carers are trying to get "cash in hand" private jobs. If they were told that it would all be done above board they might not be so keen. However, if they set themselves up as self employed there would be no need to deduct tax or insurance from them,

Tell your Mum that she would need to set up an insurance policy to cover these 'girls' in case of an accident, that she would have to do without their help if one of them were to be ill, and that she would have no recourse to any organisation whatsoever should she find they had been stealing from her. Agencies do charge a lot more than they actually pay but they are the responsible bodies.

Mauriherb, you cannot just decide they will be self employed. There are now rigorous rules in place to stop people doing that as you might have read lately about some of the journalists with the BBC. My sister had a ‘sel-employed’ carer, through the direct payment scheme and with the Social Services blessing but the DWP made her pay all the back tax because they said he had to be employed. It crippled her financially.

The insurance isn't actually that expensive. It's usually in the region of £80 - £120 a year.
Obviously there are issues with accessing a wages software, paying ni, tax etc. It's not rocket science with the right software/paperwork but it will time consuming for you op, presumably. Then there is managing the staff, contracts etc. I do see your Mothers point though but I see yours as well.

Icanhand, the local authority are supposed to support wrt to employing someone using direct payments there should be accountants involved who are approved by the LA and your records should be checked by someone from the LA.

Icanhandthemback , ah I didn't realise that, I thought that they could register as self employed if they worked for several different people. I knew they would be employed if they only worked for one person. We had a carer for our dad and she was often suggesting that she came "privately ", but she wanted cash in hand and had no intention of declaring it so we asked the agency to send someone else . As others have said , the agency send cover in case of holidays, sickness etc

JaneJudge, oh that things worked like they were supposed to. We thought that too but the reality was very different. The Social Workers who are supposed to arrange this, just don’t. In reality they just want you to use an agency as it is so much simpler...for them. We had a fight on our hands all the way to get direct payment and they insisted that the PA should be self-employed. It was quite a battle to get the extra money out of them to cover holidays etc which are the normal employment rights people have.

Isn't there also the issue of providing them with a pension, paying tax, National insurance etc?

My friend, no longer here, considered her own carer but the pitfalls were too great, especially if she was caught out by the tax man or authorities

I have a neighbour who is a carer for LA. In recent years with funding cuts a few of the ladies she cares for were assessed as not needing as much help e.g having to drop back from 2 hours per day to 1 hour. My neighbour was asked by the families of the person they cared for if she could continue to do the 2 hours and they would pay the 2nd hour themselves. She is still employed by LA to do some 1 hour per day so obviously has been DBS checked by LA. The elderly person did not want to have to get used to a different carer and was happy with the service my neighbour provides. It seems to suit both parties. I would be very wary about stopping using LA carer though as what happens if a private carer is unwell and cannot come?

Employing soneone is a minefield and not to be taken on lightly ( unless we are talking about paying someone cash in hand that is in which case “you pays your money and takes your chance” ).

The employer will be liable for all the things others have mentioned including ; living wage, employers NI, liability insurance, compulsory pension provision ( rising next month) not to mention sick pay, maternity pay, holiday pay and crikey knows what else . Having been an employer for many years I certainly wouldn’t do it again now.

The DWP don't pay all of Statutory Sick Pay like they used to either, the employer has to provide it.

Agreed Gillybob, running a payroll and employing staff is a blinking nightmare of ever changing rules and regulation and I don't think everyone realises just how onerous it can be, and yes icanhandthembackthe employer no longer gets reimbursed for SSP, when you have a small company of 7 employees as I did, and 1 goes sick for 6 weeks it is financially crippling. Not necessarily relevant to the current discussion, but just a quick insight into the process for anyone who thinks being an employer is easy!

I agree with everything you say GillT57 it is “a blinking nightmare” and exactly the same rules and regulations apply whether you employ 1 or 101 .

Gillt57, my DD had a carer who went sick before maternity leave, then took the maternity leave, then went sick again. It wasn't just a case of what money she had to find to pay the carer because it hadn't been allowed by the ASS but also the stress of finding someone else at short notice. I think you have to have really good reasons for doing direct payment if using agency staff works for you.

Of course the issue here is low pay. Good to see that some people, including your mother, are aware of this and empathise with carers.

Nearly a third of carers are on zero hours contracts and most not by choice. The suicide rate for carers is double the national average.

As their Union puts it:

"It's a sorry state of affairs when the people who care for our nearest and dearest are among the lowest paid members of the workforce, labouring with poor terms and conditions, and little job security.

“It’s little wonder carers are leaving the profession in droves, but it doesn't have to be that way.

“Paying care workers properly, giving them proper contracts and making sure they are treated like proper professionals would be a decent starting point.

“Our social care system is in crisis, one of the first things we can do to tackle the problem is invest in the health and well-being of our carers.

“With our ageing population – this problem isn’t going away.”

We can't solve this by ourselves but we can put pressure on the politicians to do so.

One of the upsides of the Adult SS direct payment system is that they allow at least £8.50 for the hourly wage. They pay a much higher rate to an agency but the agency generally only pay minimum wage. I know it isn't a great deal more but it does make a small difference.

Not all carers are poorly paid.
The most I ever earned was £980npw for 7 days, 07:30 - 19:00 with 2 hours off in the afternoon. I worked there for 15 months.
Some of that time was spent driving my employer to the shops or visits (in her car) or maybe reading to her. She employed a cleaner who also prepared the evening meal.
My job was her personal care and driving with some shopping.
I really enjoyed it as it was 1 week on 1 off. During the week off I had another similar but lighter job with fewer hours, which paid £420npw, funded by Swindon Council.
Both positions were living in with my own rooms and use of a car but I drove my own car so I received an allowance for petrol etc.
All the positions were offered in 'The Lady' magazine.
I 'incorporated' myself thus my tax bill was very light thanks to Gordon Brown.

MrsJamJam It is important to ensure that the agency knows what is happening so that they can put a stop to it. Your mother is a vulnerable adult and that is the reason that they are employed to do what they are doing. The young lady who currently comes to me is using the job to get through college and that is the right way to improve her situation and earn more money in the long term.

The agency which I use has put in place a rule that their employees are not to burden the client with their own problems. This was specifically because they are working for vulnerable people who just cannot handle the pressures these sob stories bring to bear and are unable to divorce themselves from the responsibility to do something about it.

I really feel for those in low paid employment but I can not manage the angst of it all or do anything about it personally and know that whatever I could do would never be enough therefore I am grateful for the agency rule.

only do it through an agency employing privately is a minefield and if anything goes wrong they wont be covered

Care staff are there to perform practical stuff and provide support, not to burden their clients with worries and concerns. Boundaries are vital. Far too easy for care staff to leave people fretting about things.

I used to tell staff working with me that we could discuss things like a daughter's wedding, what dress, flowers, weather etc but not how it would be paid for......steering clear of money topics means fewer chances for the unscrupulous to try and get money out of vulnerable people.

It is the same with gifts of any kind, a limit needs to be placed upon what care staff can accept, a card at Christmas and a small gift may be aceptable if the parties both agree, but it must be formalised, for everyone's protection.

Gracesgran. I don't have to be somewhere to know what good practice is. A professional care worker would not suggest clients do anything which affords them less protection than an agency does, it is not fair to client or agency.

It is tricky. My mum (and probably I am to a lesser extent) was like that. But once a cleaner who she thought she had a rapport with and from whom she had released from an agency stole a lot of money from her so she not only lost her money she felt humiliated and betrayed. Overall though I think it is a survival skill. My mother always appealed to the equal humanity of those she was dealing with with, above or below her socially. And this bond often meant she was treated well by them. She knew so much about her carers' families in her last care home it was like they had become part of her family. And I understood that because they were her family on a daily level. She wanted them to like her and she was interested in them, though I'd have prefferred firmer boundaries as it was exhausting for everyone. But it didn't stop her and overall I think it is a positive way to deal with those giving you care. So show the empathy you obviously feel and agree with her BUT point out the downsides, so eloquently spelt out above. especially as it will effect you...and say sadly no it is not a good idea. (and I have doubts too about the veracity of the carer's in this case) but lets keep an open mind and I do hope you will get her onside to willingly agree. And keep a close eye on the situation.

Gracesgran. I don't have to be somewhere to know what good practice is. A professional care worker would not suggest clients do anything which affords them less protection than an agency does, it is not fair to client or agency.

Is that what I said radical nan, and specifically to you? Would you like to refer me to the post?

I have just, like everyone else, given my experience. I have also commented that all experiences will differ. My mother will not only seem to worry about the other people coming into her home but me too. She will say she is concerned about things I haven't mentioned and that are not a problem. She likes being concerned. People will vary and, as I thought I had explained there will be a spectrum going from those who, like my mother, just like to show concern and will latch on to anything - from me, from the television, etc., to the very small number who may be at risk from a dishonest carer. All I was suggesting was that we do not risk someone's job without some evidence.

My mum gave thousands of pounds over the years to her favourite paid carers even paying for holidays abroad for their families.
We didn’t found out about this until she had no money left to pay for carers.
I went up to mums everyday after work she was always happy .
I think it would be better to stick with the agency for many reasons .
They are accountable for safety and quality of care .
Many people are on zero hours and low wages ,it is hard but your mum doesn’t really know if they are claiming top up benefits working tax credits etc .
Also I find it hard to respect “carers “ talking about their personal situations they should be talking to your mum about her life .

Also now every employed person is entitled to pension contributions as well as National Insurance etc that has been mentioned.

I am in agreement with Nanabilly when she says "I think it is quite wrong of the carer to have discussed wages with your mum" and says how this can be deliberate pressure to gain sympathy and more money.

I am sorry to say, because your mother knows the carers, that it might be advisable to tell the Agency that the carers have been talking this way. My mother and my other relative who lived nearer to her, so was in closer contact, were thoroughly taken in by a carer who was very good at befriending and beguiling people and getting them on her side. She was taking home gift after gift from my mother and the other relative was planning exactly the same scenario of by-passing the Agency. You have no security if you do this and the fact that the girls have discussed their wages suggests they are not ethical in the first place. I am suspicious of their motives.

MawBroon is very clear and I agree so strongly with her last para,;
"The carers are entirely out of order discussing their wages with a client and I might have serious doubts about their probity. Your mother and the carers need to see that this is a non- starter..."
I thought it was worth repeating.