Junior doctors strike

Casdon

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m not trying to equate one with the other. Simply pointing out that many people have to work on Christmas Day. Of course solicitors’ responsibilities are very different from doctors’ - but if you b*gger up a multi million pound deal that can be the end of your career, just as if you make a fatal mistake with a patient.

Totally different though, a doctor can kill somebody if they make a mistake, as well as endangering their career. That is the hugest responsibility a person can have.

There are others though.
Airline pilot? Train driver? Cruise ship captain? Our lives are in many hands when you think about it.

sazz1

And all those agreeing with the strikes I hope none of you suffer a fall and break a hip leg or arm requiring urgent surgery and have to lie in pain for 14 days because of these strikes. You might feel differently then.

My OH did suffer a fall - a bad one - and had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance.

Not because anyone in the NHS was on strike, but because that's how bad things are in the NHS after 13 years of Tory government.

A government that could if it wanted to, enter into serious talks with the doctors, showing a willingness to really deal with the problem of, not just pay, but working conditions also. Some doctors have indicated they would be willing to downgrade their demand if they believed the government was genuinely determined to tackle the issue.

What the government are doing is just allowing the issue to develop so it can blame the doctors for the appalling state of the NHS. A plan that obviously works with those like you.

As for punishing them by decreasing their pay... seriously?

When the NHS disintegrates to the point where you start having to pay for appointments and treatments - you might feel differently then. You might wish that the government had with good faith entered into discussions, instead of using it as a political football.

Confused by this discussion its seems to indicate we are training Doctors and they then leave to work abroad which seems wrong, I then hope that they do not receive a pension from the UK.
Why has someone in government not brought up reducing the Doctors pension contributions so their pay can be increased?

Doctors pay for their trainibg.

Decent pensions and terms and conditions have previously been something public servants had. They were paid less than equivalent in the private sector.
These terms and conditions have been eroded. Contributions to pension increased and pensions decreased
We either invest in public services like other Northern European countries and have more stable productive communities like they go, or we continue believing thr nonsense this government spouts

Doctors pensions have been reduced. One of the unforseen consequences of this is that established and experienced doctors who are on the old scheme will not move from one NHS (say England to Scotland or Wales) to another, because in doing so they have to move to the new pension scheme. It costs them thousands.

I'm a retired doctor and mum to a daughter who a GP.
Technically, neither of us is a " junior doctor ".
However, I don't think many understand that " junior doctor " refers to any doctor who has not yet attained either a Consultant post or completed their GP training.
This means they could have been working as a qualified doctor for many years, on the required training schemes .They are not kids just out of uni.
Many are extremely well qualified adults who carry the bulk of the NHS work.
Until you have experienced the training of a doctor, or the working hours and conditions you have no idea how difficult it all is.
We are almost all people who care , who have studied, trained , worked really, really hard, given up much of our youth to do this job . We care about the patients and how the NHS is being destroyed .
The pay for junior doctors was never equitable with other professionals. The government has always relied on the good will of us all.
However, nowadays, the pay for all the hours of gruelling, emotionally and physically draining work , which is often like no other job you can imagine, has been devalued to the level of that earned by a dog walker!
Please, next time you either visit your Doctor, please try to imagine actually doing the job .
I really do promise you won't have a clue what it involves and the toll it takes .....
Please, if you want doctors and an NHS in the future, support this strike.
The government cannot be allowed to win. Their plan is privatisation by stealth and then we,all lose

Mirren - thank you

Excellent post Mirren.
I find the attitude of many people towards the doctors shocking.
I suppose it comes out of a lack of understanding and self interest.

Sazzl my blood pressure is normally pretty good but I'm afraid your post has sent it through the roof. When all these greedy doctors throw the towel in with the NHS and clear off to the private sector it won't just be lack of care due to strikes that you have to deal with. You will be paying for all your medical treatment and we will end up like the USA. I can't believe your entitled attitude, you sound like you'd like to have them horse whipped for having the audacity to strike. Be careful what you wish for.

Iam64

Doctors pay for their trainibg.

Decent pensions and terms and conditions have previously been something public servants had. They were paid less than equivalent in the private sector.
These terms and conditions have been eroded. Contributions to pension increased and pensions decreased
We either invest in public services like other Northern European countries and have more stable productive communities like they go, or we continue believing thr nonsense this government spouts

Doctors don't pay for all their training.

Personal Social Services Research Unit (PSSRU) at the University of Kent produces estimates for the cost of training different kinds of doctors. The 2022 edition of these estimates suggests that the total cost of training someone until they finish medical school is £244,730.

This goes up to half a million to train the more senior medics

Interesting Louella12. So surely if the country has invested so much in their training the least they could expect is an undertaking to stay in UK for a minimum number of years (5?) or pay back their training costs.

Contributing to the cost of training doctors and other health professionals seems a good investment to me

"£163,000 paid in grants that the government won’t get back. These either go directly to students, to healthcare providers to support clinical placements, or to universities to reflect the higher costs of delivering medical education.
Another £64,300 comes in student loans. These are similar to loans for other kinds of university courses, covering tuition and living costs." fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/
Actually, another way of looking at this is to say, Students PAY on average £64,300 to become a doctor, studying for at least five years and they then work for two years on extremely a very poor salary as F1/F2 doctors for the NHS being shunted round the country. This is before they can start specialist training which can then take 8 or more years. Whilst undergoing further training they are the backbone of the NHS, work very unsocial hours, frequently do unpaid overtime, pay for their exams and additional external training which has to be done outside of their working hours, pay an annual amount to be a registered doctor with the GMC and also to the the body which represents their specialism (or they can't take the exams) and they also pay about £500pa insurance. Paying for placements, clinical in the case of undergrad doctors, is common place for many professions. Schools get paid for having trainee teachers, hospitals get paid for having physios etc, vets get paid for giving placements to trainee vets. Surely if you want properly trained people they have to be trained but why should doctors be treated differently, do we expect teachers to pay back their training costs if they leave the profession or go to work abroad or at a fee paying school?

A question was asked in Parliament about this. The answer really isn't clear on how much the individual pays and how much the state contributes. I would imagine there is such a huge variation it can't be generalised. I also wonder can paying someone to do a job be considered a cost? Isn't it paying for a service?
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2023-04-24/hl7405

They’re also working as their training continues - long shifts under huge pressure and with so many critical comments

I was just thinking if an apprentice is paid is that a wage or a training cost?

Greyisnotmycolour you are absolutely right. Whilst we debate training costs/ pensions et al, doctors leave in droves or elect to limit their stress by working part time: my designated GP works one day a week. Therefore we are short of doctors, so need to offer a more attractive package to stay, incorporating pay and working conditions- our current government is supposed to be an active supporter of the market economy, aren't they?
Oh and Sazz - I hope that your niece's problems don't relate to an existing condition as she'd be uninsurable and the wait would be just the start of your problems. My diabetic daughter would be uninsured and thus responsible for all of her health costs, not just those relating to her condition.

That’s a good analysis, Foxie. One cost for FY and junior doctors that hasn’t been mentioned is the frequent moving from one area to another that is often required. They may be moving every six months or so, which costs money and time as well as the social upheaval of an unsettled lifestyle.

People also don’t realise that student doctors don’t spend five years lolling about in lecture halls or in the pub. Their courses are full time and in many universities they work in hospitals or in the community (under supervision) for their last two or three years of training. The NHS would fall down even more if student medics were not deployed in this way. This demand for forced labour is nonsense and people need to open their eyes to what is really involved. In any case, who wants to be treated by a doctor who doesn’t want to be there?

As it is, my own medic dd is paying back her costs in pounds of flesh. She’s lost at least 10kilos since entering her FY years and is currently wearing size 6/8 clothes that hang off her like she’s a coat hanger. I’m seriously concerned about her health.

Glorianny

I was just thinking if an apprentice is paid is that a wage or a training cost?

That's an interesting question, I'm not sure I can answer it but throughout my working life I have received training paid for by my employer and also delivered training to colleagues. I've never been asked to pay back the value of that training when I've left, nor have I received training on condition that I continue to work for that employer. I really don't understand why anyone thinks it's OK to pick on medics or why they think because medics work exclusively for the NHS in order to receive the training they need to be competent at their job that they should be paid less. I've friends who work in IT, the salaries they command (partly because of the shortage of suitably qualified people) are frankly eye watering. They work on contracts for the government but for private companies or agencies so effectively are being paid by the tax payer!

well said Mirren. We also have Drs in the family and I find some of these comments really ignorant of what is actually happening. The 'junior' Drs in our family have very little personal life, they work so much

Another very good post foxie.
The problem as I see it is that much of the public think they’ve paid their NI contributions, or not if they remain per housewives, and think that those payments cover the cost of all of their State Pension, plus every bit of health care they require, as and when they require it, including face to face GP appointments as when they want one. Whilst I totally support our NHS, I do not support the idea that doctors owe us because we paid NI contributions.
My daughter is currently working abroad as a doctor. She worked in the NHS for 14 years before she went abroad, and she hopes to return and work for the NHS again in the future.
So these figures of work for five years in the NHS simply don’t apply for her or most doctors who leave.

I worked for the NHS for some years as a medical secretary and I never received a pay rise in all that time. Now I do think that the junior drs should get the pay rise but why have they left it for years and years and then hold strikes? They should have demanded the rises years ago. Also I have had my hysterectomy operation put back twice because of their strikes. Now what if I have cancer and die from this before they get my operation? I feel for both sides but right now I want to think about me. Sorry if this upsets some people.

Actually two good posts foxie and SueDonim and also others. I half wrote my post above when my phone rang and I was speaking to my niece for a good while, so the thread moved on whilst I was otherwise occupied.
I would direct posters back to the post I wrote upthread about costs to my doctor daughter re training and in service training, and the difference between her and my two sons, and how their training costs were met. It’s an interesting point.

Purplepixie doctors didn’t leave it for years and years. They have been on strike in previous years, and tried to negotiate for many years. The government is intransigent. That is the problem.

Purplepixie

I worked for the NHS for some years as a medical secretary and I never received a pay rise in all that time. Now I do think that the junior drs should get the pay rise but why have they left it for years and years and then hold strikes? They should have demanded the rises years ago. Also I have had my hysterectomy operation put back twice because of their strikes. Now what if I have cancer and die from this before they get my operation? I feel for both sides but right now I want to think about me. Sorry if this upsets some people.

I'm sorry you are having cancellations, I'm also on a wait list and haven't even got to the point of being offered a date! It's just not good enough, is it. Like living in a third world country but tbf to the doctors, they have continually put the needs of the NHS above their own and it has got them precisely "nowhere".