Ding Dong .... round 2

I was one generation out in James VI's English ancestry - Margaret Tudor was his greatgrandmother, not his grandmother. Sorry.

Elizabeth called Mary "cousin" but that was a bit vague. Mary's father James V (grandfather of James VI ) was Elizabeth's first cousin.

When I was younger I went through a Jean Plaidy phase and for a while was a great fan of historical fiction - quite painless, easy reading and even if not 100% accurate certainly gave a taste of the times and also a context for the hard facts. Both DDs enjoyed the books and one now has a real interest in history while the other is a Tudors fan ( not just the tv series ). Think the story of Elizabeth 1 and Mary Queen of Scots is told in The Royal Road to Fotheringay. Now feeling I need to revisit Holyrood and Falkland palaces and the new visitor centre at Bannockburn!

This is so interesting, thanks Elegran and mcem for your summaries of the history in these islands.

I wish we all understood our own history better than we do. I'm lazy about reading historical texts, but this discussion is great, thanks

Elegran gave very good and succinct summary of how the UK came into being. A balanced and politically neutral account. As always in political debate, there are different points of view. There are some who might say that James VI took over the throne of England after succeeding Elizabeth I ( who had his mother beheaded) and the (Scottish) Stuart dynasty succeeded the Tudors. This event was the Union of the Crowns. James however was not a shining example of a monarch. The Act of Union was in 1707 when the Parliaments united. Or alternative view - that Scotland was sold down the river by 'the parcel of rogues' ie Scots with ulterior motives. I make no comment on where I stand but it's clear that many of the emotional responses of today stem from controversy back then.
Sorry if I'm teaching gransnetters to suck eggs but some posters did seem genuinely interested.
Anno I was interested to see on last night's news that Nicola Sturgeon made pretty much the same comments about left of centre politics in Scotland post- independence as you did earlier. That's something of a shift in emphasis in the debate, don't you think?
Assuming that Granny23 is at the SNP conference it will be interesting to see what she might have to contribute on her return.
Papaoscar I'm enjoying your wider view!

mcem you can throw in anything you like. You papaoscar are so right and it will be interesting as to where it goes from here. I imagine you could already add a few more cultures to the mix. As regards dominated by the rich, that hasn't changed either. Even a few have been added to them! Talking of history, I was researching my husband's family and found a couple in the register of the Hearth Tax of 1665. The person collecting the taxes was from the same family who owns half of the businesses properties on the Isle of Wight now. Nothing has changed and everything has changed!

I'm no historian but like the subject. Our history, that of the British Isles I mean, is a real mash-up of Celtic, Pictish, Roman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Norman cultures, often tribal in nature and dominated by rich and powerful elites all with their own particular axes to grind. We are certainly all a mongrel breed and it's probably a miracle that the UK as such evolved at all, but it did and prospered. Where it goes from here-on is going to be very interesting for many reasons.

May I just throw in 'such a parcel of rogues in a nation' without comment or explanation?
Papaoscar complimented us on our high standard of debate so I thought I'd introduce a bit more controversy.

Thank you, I feel better now!

The union of the kingdoms of England and Ireland and that of Scotland happened when Elizabeth 1 died with no heir, so the throne went to her nearest male relation, James VI, son of Mary Queen of Scots and grandson of Mary Tudor, the sister of Henry VIII. He became James I and based himself in England, where he styled himself "King of Great Britain and Ireland"

There were separate parliaments in Scotland and England until 1707.

I thought about that after I'd written it! Put it down to age! It would have been England though, not the UK.

I am not a historian, but I suspect the uniting of the UK was largely down to the English taking over. That's why we English aren't always loved as we should be!

Does anyone know anything about the history regarding the uniting of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? That was probably just as thought provoking as separating.

You speak good sense papaoscar. With all the instability in the world I find all the talk of separation worrying, however much one can understand the emotional ties & arguments. Even if we are all part of the EU in the end, I believe we will be more able to assert ourselves in the UK stays as it is with adaptations to devolve more functions.

(Re Asda - I know their current expansion will focus on the SE but they have had quite a presence for a long time in & around London with no shortage of customers - and there are a lot of northerners in the area to support them too.)

One of the things I like about GN is the high standard of debate on the forums and the respect members have for each other. Long may that continue, so no offence taken, or I hope given, Hon. Members!

The Scottish referendum, whatever the result, will call into question all sorts of issues, from the serious to the trivial and no doubt there will be racist trumpetings from both sides of the border. If we do have to separate it will be sad after all these years but people's wishes have to be respected. What will also have to be respected are the rights and responsibilities of the ROUK, whose primary duty will be to protect the interests of its own citizens.

Hopefully, separation arrangements satisfactory on both sides of the border will be thrashed out, but I am really not sure how much detailed work has been done in that respect. Scotland's status within the EU and relationship to Sterling are vital matters and if I were a Scottish voter I would need to be absolutely sure about them before I committed myself to a vote. After all, Braveheart-style nationalistic rhetoric will not put porridge in the bowl. Those oilfields won't last forever and they are vulnerable.

Sorry - it's so easy to get paranoid on here!

No Ana your contributions definitely come under the interesting and rational comments and questions heading.
I'm afraid I was referring back to comments along the us and them lines and, given previous experiences on some GN threads was just a bit wary that this one might follow suit.

I haven't seen any 'anti-Scottish' comments on this thread at all, in fact!

What jibes? My question was serious.

So many things which need to be discussed with those involved. Votes on both Scottish Independence and membership of the EU should be made, not on emotional issues, but in knowledge of the full facts and consequences of doing so. A simple 'Yes' 'No' referendum does not really fit the bill.

Apologies if I got that wrong papaoscar. From the wording of your posts I did not think that you lived in Scotland despite your heritage. If I'm right then you won't be entitled to vote but you'll obviously hold on to your roots!
The anti-scottish gibes are reappearing unfortunately. This thread was showing an interesting balance with rational comments, questions and replies from virtually all contributors.

"It would be 'extremely difficult' for independent Scotland to join EU, says European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso".

Would we have to have border controls if Scotland declares itself an independent country but isn't allowed to join the EU?

Presumably paposcar's passport would no longer proclaim the holder as being a British Citizen if issued in Scotland.

Ninny if Scotland were to vote for independence, why would that change the status of papaoscar?

Why not, Ninny, as far as I am concerned I was born British and will remain British, of English and Scottish extraction. After all, Irish people describe themselves as Irish whether from Eire or Northern Ireland. The Scots are free to call themselves what they like, though I did read somewhere that the word 'Scot' comes from the Pictish word for foreigner.

If Scotland gets independence you will not be British.