Ding Dong .... round 2

I wish the very best of luck to Scotland, but I've been trying to work out some of the consequences for ROUK after Scottish independence, should they get it. Assuming for the moment that Wales and Northern Ireland want to stay onboard, I'm concerned about the resulting parliamentary swing in favour of the Tories. This could result in an increase in political polarisation and social and geographic divisions. Perhaps also a rise in isolationism, sectarianism and, unfortunately, racism of all sorts. Other things like the new ROUK flag and title come to mind (United Kindom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland?) Let's hope it all goes swimmingly. We shall see!

mcem, it's great to have a voice from Scotland contributing to this discussion. I appreciated your summary of your own thinking, and that of others close to you. I still hope that Scotland doesn't separate, but I can understand the arguments for independence. I live in the north west, and have commented previously, that I can see benefits to the north generally, of joining an independent Scotland.
Poposcar's points about what happens at the 2015 election are interesting. My biggest worry about Scottish independence is losing the contribution of what could be called slightly left leaning politicians and citizens to the debate in the UK. I feel the north is like another country these days. Asda are hoping to break into the London market, and I heard an interviewer on Radio 4 this week suggest that Asda had "a very northern image". The implication was it was too flat cap and whippet to appeal to sophisticated Londoners. If we can't be a united country, fear we are simply part of a European state make me

Alternatively, we will become the United States of Europe and whether we consider ourselves collectively one State, or four - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will make not a scrap of difference and the whole exercise will be a waste of time and immaterial. Honesty is what is required and I cannot understand why there is so little. I wonder if the United States of America went through these insecurities and fears before uniting.

Assume that the Scots vote yes to independence in September. What will happen? The UK as we know it will be finished and the separation of functions will commence in preparation for the act of independence in 2016. But before that comes the 2015 UK general election in which voting in Scotland would be unacceptable because Scotland will very soon be a foreign country. This raises serious electoral issues for the rest of the UK with many far reaching consequences, of which the Pound, EU, oil and defence are just a few. There are so many of these things to be sorted out that I forsee armies of lawyers making a fortune out of this for a very long time. I do hope that adequate preparations are being made for all this, otherwise there is likely to be chaos.

Exactly, Experigran. A lot of issues (in both cases) seem to be glossed over, or deemed by the powers-that-be not to be matters the public should be concerned about. I get the feeling that there are some things that it will be impossible to sort out until after a referendum result is determined.

I, for one, don't feel that way and am genuinely interested in all that is happening. I think the situation in Scotland is similar to the EU question in the UK. Not enough is known about the pros and cons. A lot of hype from the extremes, but not a lot of discussion about the things that really matter and need consideration. Their non-discussion makes me feel that there are things they would rather we didn't know.

Anno I do agree with all you've said. I deliberately avoided commenting on the we british remark as I was a bit unsure if there was a hidden agenda. Excluding Scotland from the UK as a whole or an attempt to sidestep the little Englander tag?
Some posters seem to see this whole independence discussion as no more than an aggressive tactic to irritate England instead of an issue worthy of serious thought and rational debate.

The usual "British=English" misconception. If the Scots, Welsh or N Irish mixed up the two they would be accused of arrogance for thinking that they represented all of Britain.

PS Ninny. Your reference to 'we British' is deeply offensive to us Scots were born British and consider ourselves British. I for one am proud to be Scots and proud to carry a British passport.

No matter how good a job the SNP has been doing - and I do applaud their social policies- in an independent Scotland, they may, in an election under a fair voting system, they may either lose power or be involved in a coalition.I don't think the Tories would ever stand much chance, and any coalition in Scotland would inevitably be left of centre. No wonder the Tories are using scare tactics to bring about a 'No' vote.

You're asking the same questions as I am.
Until I know about our potential status in Europe ( I prefer IN to OUT) and also know more about the currency issues, I'm reserving judgement.
My DGD will turn 17 in July and will vote in the referendum. I am aware that her vote is almost more significant than mine as she'll live with the consequences longer than I will.
Although we've discussed the importance of registering that vote, I don't know how she'll vote or whether she'll tell me. My DS will definitely vote to stay in the UK. As for others in the family, I don't know.

I think that UKIP have gained popularity for exactly the same reasons. That people have lost faith in the rest. I think, I meant the people of Scotland, rather than you personally mcem What is the feeling there. Would independence mean that you could stay in the EU and would it make a difference if you found you could not do so? I'm about as far away from Scotland as you can get in UK. How I would love the Isle of Wight to become independent!

You ask if I would feel the same about devolution ( independence) and Europe. May I just point out that I have not expressed my views on independence therefore can hardly be rallying support for Salmond. I have simply said that faced with a number of choices, like the rest of the UK we have to consider all possibilities. As far as I am concerned BNP, UKIP and Conservatives are complete non-starters.
Have lost faith in LibDem and Labour , both of which I have supported in the past.
With or without independence SNP have done a good left-of-centre job and I largely agree with their social policies.
I shall decide in due course how to vote in the referendum and in subsequenrt parliamentary elections whether for Westminster or Holyrood.
I have absolutely no say in what may or may not happen in England in future but hope I'd show some tolerant interest, rather than just dismiss the issue with 'never mind what's happening in England'.

Never mind Scotland giving their people a vote to become independent, why can't we British have the same vote given to us, do we want to remain with Scotland.

Mcem Would you feel the same about devolution if it means that you must leave the EU? How do you stand on the issue of leaving Europe?

Or are you just rallying support (by the Scottish GN members, of course) for Alex Salmond, in a roundabout way?

Well, yes, that was my point, mcem. We know you have that alternative. I still don't know what alternative you're suggesting that we non-Scots should consider if it's not UKIP. I think the BNP's dead in the water...

Feel free to consider any party you deem worthy of your vote. I'm simply saying that we're fortunate to have an additional option and it's reasonable for Scotland to take that into account when deciding how to vote.

Nigel Farrage got short shift in Edinburgh. I doubt many Scots would tolerate his brand of politics, even if there was no SNP. Conservatives are not popular in many parts of Scotland, so anyone even further right doesn't stand a chance.

OK mcem, so we'll consider UKIP if we may, in the absence of any other suggestions!

To put it as simply as possible. Many Scots are looking to SNP to continue to provide better standards of care and education than those on offer in England ( even without independence) so there is another choice north of the border and many voters are considering options which do not include DC or EM.

Experigran that's my point, about local schools. I live in a multi-cultural part of the UK, high immigration from Europe and Asia. Many different languages spoken, and ditto religions and cultures. Our schools are doing OK. Granted many have has building programme to cope with increased numbers, going from two form entry to three, for example. But no issues with overcrowding, lack of teachers, TAs, resources.

No, you've still lost me. We aren't to consider Nigel Farage, but should consider some unnamed alternative...?

That there are generally fewer complaints about education and the NHS in Scotland than elsewhere ( no Michael Gove for instance). My point is that Scots do have an 'extra' choice so it's perfectly reasonable to exercise some thought in considering the options as has happened in the past when the SNP took power. We can't offer you that choice but we can think about it.

I'm not sure what point you're making, mcem.

"If you had the choice of better conditons in schools and hospitals wouldn't you at least consider it?"

What choice is it you're suggesting that we consider?