Ding Dong .... round 2

When we look at the fears expressed here about education and the NHS - and not only in the context of immigration - it does look as if folks genuinely feel they've no choice. If you had the choice of better conditons in schools and hospitals wouldn't you at least consider it? That's a very simplistic view I admit but it goes part of the way to explain why conscientious voters in Scotland are seriously looking at the alternative. (But feel free to keep Farage as we have NO need of him).

I would like to know who are you all going to vote for, you don't like Nigel Farage who wants us out of Europe and closed borders. Many GNs I know from previous threads don't like David Cameron but he is going to give us an in/out vote over Europe. That leaves Nick Clegg pro Europe and Ed Miliband pro Europe. I personally wouldn't trust the last two.

I think that whether the schools are coping depends where you are and also the pressure on hospitals. You are absolutely right as regards mismanagement and abundance of administrators. Again, we cannot manage without immigration, but it must be controlled. it's solely numbers, not any other reason.

We keep being told there are not enough schools, but I have not seen any problems where we live. Hospitals certainly wouldn't cope without immigrant doctors and nurses. Many of the problems in our hospitals have less to do with outside pressure than mismanagement, poor quality of care and an over abundance of administrators.

Nobody is actually picking on minorities, unless you know different. it is purely that the infrastructure cannot cope with the sheer numbers coming here. Nobody wants extra houses built near them, but moan that they cannot afford a buy a house. We do not have enough schools and the hospitals are not coping. Nobody assumes that we can do without migrants. Diversity is a benefit which we have always enjoyed and will always do so. I do not like the open borders, but would have no objection if all counties in the EU were on equal status re: standard of living, wages, benefits etc. This would make for a fairer distribution of people. It is quite obvious that we are a part of a United States of Europe in all, but name. Once that is out in the open and they get on with it, it will be better for all. We would then know, and hopefully elect those making the rules and regulations.

The days when the UK sat proud and mighty off the coast of Europe, dictating to the world, controlling the oceans, with a massive navy, empire and huge domestic industrial base are long gone, whether we like it or not. So we can either sit on the sidelines of modern life, whining, moaning and wallowing in nostalgia or we can take a grip of ourselves and start to make the best of our still enormous potential.

We will not do that by picking on minorities, foreigners or any other convenient group of easy targets. Fact is there is benefit fraud. Fact is there is even more banking fraud and business sharp practice. Fact is governments have wasted many good lives and money on ridiculous foreign wars. Fact is the EU - with all is faults - has achieved a relatively stable economic background for over 60 years, with NATO providing an effective defensive shield. Massive change is overtaking the world and it is foolish to pretend that the UK can just back away from it. It is even more foolish to think that UKIP, led by its spivs and snake-charmers, can provide solutions to the problems facing the nation.

One of those problems may face the UK very soon. Its Scotland. If the Scots do choose to leave the UK then good luck to them, but the consequences for the rest of the UK will be immediate, far-reaching and serious. Membership of the EU will be even more vital for the rUK and the need for cooperation will be paramount. So perhaps UKIP should fold up its tent now, rename itself SIP, and head north of the border with its wheelbarrow full of tripe, prejudice and piffle!

Nigel Farage has stated that becoming PM is not his aim. His aim to to get control of our rules and regulations back home, where they belong. Immigration from EU is something we are all concerned about and I for one am pleased that he has brought this to the forefront. What does concern me is the lack of Government information on what is really happening to the Country and what control, or lack of control there is. The fact that none of them really don't want a referendum suggests that they are very unsure of the outcome of such a vote. The longer it is left, the worse it will become. David Cameron has promised one if they are re-elected and cannot negotiate better terms for the Country. This suggests that the terms under which we now operate are detrimental. Border control between EU countries is non-negotiable, so that problem will not be solved. Maybe we should all open small businesses in Poland, or Bulgaria where labour is cheap.

A very interesting story, Experigran, which makes me realise that I could easily have been born an Egyptian, due to the ancient ramblings of my parents. I can see myself togged out in bedsheets and a fez!

On a more serious note, I am always suspicious of those like NF who offer quick solutions to big problems, with dollops of snake-oil. Their views can easily go viral and cause all sorts of problems. Mass immigration, whether from Europe or elsewhere is a problem but the laws are there to control it. The sad things is that for many years UK governments have not applied them and allowed border controls to become a farce. NF's bellowings will not solve that.

I, for one, am well aware that illegal immigrants claim no benefits.

I can be quite specific on this point. My daughter was born in Australia in 1976 and we returned when she was 9 months old. At that time because we had not taken Australian citizenship, she was British. She worked in the hospitals and care sector, on a very low wage, from the time she was 18. When she was 25, in 2001, she applied for legal Aid. She received a solicitor's letter informing her that she was an illegal immigrant, could no longer work, or receive help with child benefit,or her rent and she should leave the Country as soon as possible. She didn't even have a passport at this time. We contacted all the authorities. Our MP got back to us after 3 days. The Directorate of Nationality in Liverpool told us that she would have no problem getting her UK citizenship, but would have to get to the back of the queue and it would probably take eighteen months. There was no way she could survive without work. The rules had apparently been changed in the eighties. These changes meant that those born before 1984 take their Nationality from the place they were born - this meant that she was Australian. Anyone born after 1984, take their nationality, not from the place they were born, but from the place their parents were born. Because of this, her daughter who was 7 was Stateless.

An email to Australia House for clarification resulted in a phone call within the hour. They had been unaware of this change, but said it was indeed so. She received two passports and a certificate of citizenship for her daughter, from Australia, within 3 weeks. . They were in Australia for four years before they were finally granted British citizenship.

Talking to a High Sheriff one day he told me that the people that would get caught up in this are the grandchildren of service personell whose children were born overseas. Although their children would have no problems, their grandchildren would. He advised that their grandchildren should be born in UK and be registered as British at birth.

So, if that applies to your family, take note. I have two Grandchildren who were born in Germany, so to all intents and purposes they and their children, are German. No matter while we are in Europe, but a problem should we go it alone.

I share your hope that this country remains democratic. I'm unconvinced that extremes from either side of the political divide with ensure that happens. I find Farrage entertaining, a bit like Boris, but I wouldn't want either of them as PM, or with any more power and influence than they already have.

My point durhamjen was that many travel under extreme circumstances to reach the UK. If they were simply seeking asylum, they would stop at the first free port they came to and then relocate legally. The immigration problem to which Nigel Farage refers is European migrants who have unlimited entry and we have no laws to prevent that. It is sheer numbers which he objects to, not Nationality. He has many followers because we also are a democratic nation and free to elect whosoever we choose. I hope it is always so.

Experigran, further to your point about the rest of Europe, in 2012 Germany had 64500 asylum seekers, France had 55100, Sweden 43900 and the UK 23499.
This does not exactly support your point about them all coming here.

More than fifty years ago I remember parts of London where the locals were either distinctly Turkish or Greek Cypriot, and other parts where they were mainly Afro-Caribbean, or Italian or Irish, and other parts where they were almost entirely Jewish etc., etc. And if you went to other big cities or towns similar ethnic variations were very obvious. Despite all the stresses of those times most people seemed to rub along pretty well most of the time, but there was prejudice and discrimination, so its nothing new.

What is new these days is the absolute failure of British governments to use existing laws to control and regulate the numbers of people from Europe or elsewhere who want to move to the UK for whatever reason. One major obstacle has been the stubborn refusal of the British to accept any form of identity card. Another has been the 'blind-eye' approach of UK law-enforcers to certain illegal and disgusting activities imported by some new arrivals.

As a result people's genuine concerns about immigration are now being whipped up into a racist frenzy by certain parts of the media and UKIP. If we are all not very careful this will end in tears and we will be all be worse off.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1
How we treat asylum seekers in this country.

So that's just an aberration, is it? We normally treat asylum seekers with care and compassion, except when we split them up from their families, send them back to the place they have come from to continue being persecuted, keep them in detention centres until we send them back, and not allow them to work but give them no benefits, sometimes for years?
That's caring and compassionate is it?
You still have not said why or how my comment was petty or pointless, just that you think it is.

I refer you back to my post of 15.07.

And just in case you are going to criticise that, how was my comment petty and pointless?

So why was my comment petty and pointless?

Yes, we had a thread about Yashika Bageerathi last week, you may remember.
(petty does not mean exactly the same as pointless, btw)

Why was it petty and pointless? It's the same thing.
There were hundreds of people who signed a petition to keep an asylum seeker here, who had come over with her family. Because of a lack of compassion by this government, she was sent back to Mauritius, I think it was, on her own, just six weeks before her 'A' levels. She would have been willing to go back with the rest of her family, but is now on her own in a country from which she had fled.
I know that people on here signed the petition, because of compassion for the girl. It's not political views, it's just common humanity.
Experigran, we are truly Europe. We always have been. Just because we do not use the Euro as our currency, and probably never will, does not make us less European.
We are known for our tolerance, are we? So why does Farage have so many followers?

I'm sure that, if we had the room and resources we would take them all in durhamjen What is happening is appalling. What will happen when we are truly Europe? Will we be able to help as much then, or will we still be the dumping ground for mainland Europe? We are known for our compassion, democracy and tolerance. Why are the rest of Europe, many of whom have much more space, not the same?

I found that last sentence petty and pointless, which was why I commented on it. Please don't presume me to be lacking in compassion just because I don't share your political views, durhamjen.

Never said it was, Ana. However, everybody's generalisations are specific to other individuals. Do you not feel anything for those who were drowned in the Med trying to escape persecution in their own countries? That was the body of my comment, and you criticise one last sentence!

Experigran I couldn't agree more.

That specific case is hardly representative of how Britain treats asylum-seekers/immigrants generally, durhamjen!