Ding Dong .... round 2

It certainly is corrupt but given that it's foundations were set on corruption and getting as much as possible for giving as little as possible, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised really.

Part of me would love to see the collapse of Capitalism but the selfish side of me rather likes having the mod cons (hmm, a pun) that brings.

The whole system is corrupt and needs a good shake up.

If he's managing to run an office set-up on £12,000p.a. then he's doing a sterling job; when my husband and I ran an office, it cost a darned sight more than that (even excluding the rent).

The report from the link sounds more like a hatchet job instigated by worried MPs than anything else. Unless people think Farage should personally pay for all of his political expenses where other MPs can claim?

If he is fiddling the expenses, it makes him no different from all the other MPs taking money.

Farage is a bigger hypocrite than the other politicians. At least they pay lip-service to supporting Parliament whilst taking our money.

Please relocate the nuclear subs to Portsmouth. They'll be further away from here.
Back to Nigel Farage. Just read this about him.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/15/nigel-farage-under-fire-over-office-expenses
Not quite as much as Maria Miller, and he's pinching it from the European Parliament, but we'll see if the principle is the same, considering what he said about her.

That's a perfect reason Papaoscar for going back to sleep, getting ourself revved up for the Archers.

However I might have misunderstood your post as Aka said .

I will have to listen to TA on catch up as I got involved with the marathon instead.

Got to rest before the Archers!

I read it very differently PO funny how we all put our own little slants on things.

Back to sleep Papaoscar ! What time of day do you call this ?

Just listened to Salmond's speech ... join us and jump into the unknown! I thought he looked and sounded sad, desperate and negative. A poor little man with a chip on his shoulder leading his proud little nation into oblivion, I suspect, like the pied piper.

Now about our flag, for the rest of the UK I mean. If Scotland leaves I can see no reason at all to change the magnificent Union Flag which has served us all so well for so long, and is recognised everywhere. The blue bits can represent the seas which surrounds us. The Pound and British Airways can stay the same, as can the BBC and the Navy, Army and RAF, just relocate the nuclear subs to Portsmouth.

The Kingdom will still be United so we can continue to call ourselves the UK and that can stay on our passports. All sorted then. Now back to sleep!

We are bystanders, I'm afraid. I don't like the idea of Scotland breaking away. I have spent many good times in Scotland and would love to live there.

Yes indeed Experigran - wouldn't it be wonderful if the politicians engaged unconsidered debates, rather than polarising, it seems, almost everything.

So far as our family history has been explored so far, we seem to be very English on the paternal side (back to 1640) My mother's family are clear on her father's side back to 17th century, on her own mother's side there is a mystery. It seems we have Scottish and Irish ancestry, we're still searching. It's a long standing family belief that our maternal great grandparents were Irish. This comes from my maternal grandmother's "Irish" ways, the food she cooked, the songs she sang to us, her blue eyes, and black hair. Who knows? We got stuck around 1850 - many Irish people arrived in the north west during that period.

What I'm suggesting is that we are such a mixed bunch in the UK. Particularly in England as so many people from Ireland, Wales and Scotland moved to England for work. I have mixed feelings about independence for Scotland. I see arguments for both sides, and as I don't have a vote, I feel like a bystander.

Anno You would be mis informed if you relied on my post. I was a generation out and I got a name wrong.

It's a pity the politicians don't discuss things openly. It seems they only shout each other down.

As a Scot born, bred and educated, though with 25% English ancestry, it's galling to have to watch from the sidelines while my nationality is decided for me. This is as good a discussion of the subject as I have yet encountered - dispassionate and increasingly well-informed, thanks to mcem , Elegran and papaoscar.

Tegan in view of your clear interest, may I make a suggestion. Please check out a map of Scotland and you'll soon be able to see how surprisingly far north the romans ventured.
Further north than Hadrian's wall and the borders, further north than Edinburgh and Fife. Keep going until you reach the county of Angus and the town of Brechin. Just to the west of this in Perthshire you may find Fortingall where traces of a roman camp can still be seen. Admittedly, there are those who attribute the final roman defeat to the weather and not the picts!
As for wondering if we'd be having the debate about the future of Scotland if that had been different, I'd say yes we would in view of the centuries of political wrangling that followed. This is not the first debate and I'm sure it won't be the last!
(Fully endorse Elegran's comments on nationalism.)

There is a differentiation Tegan between national pride and international arrogance over others, isn't there? Just as it is not the same to be an ardent believer in your own religion/football team/school/family as it is to beat up anyone of a different religion/football team/school/family or declare them fit to be put to death.

Yes, I'm forgetting that Hadrians Wall is further south [I've never actually seen it ] but what it does do is make a definate north/south divide if you allow for the Border Country above it. I suppose I tend to find nationalism rather frightening, especially when it's power is harnessed by political parties. Although I'm very much in favour of National Pride, if the edges don't blur too much.

Sorry Tegan not sure about that. I think papaoscar's earlier post gave an insight into how complicated our background is. After all, Hadrian's wall didn't halt the Roman advance. It took the Picts in Angus to stop them. (very simplistic view I admit). If today's border had been based around the extent of the Roman advance it would be much further north. Apologies if I misinterpreted your comment.

Along with Jean Plaidy, ne of my favourite historical novelists is Cynthia Harrod Eagles. Her series Dynasty centres on one family from the 14th to the twentieth century. Located in Yorkshire it shows how one family evolved to become wealthy. With one at Court, one in the Church and one in the Military from each generation it gives a very good overview of the politics of the time and how the general population were affected.

But, going back to the Rory Stewart programme would there now be a debate about the future of Scotland if the Romans hadn't built Hadrians Wall all those years ago? Surely that's when the 'National Identity' started to evolve?

Ps I too have found it fascinating to exchange questions, answers, facts and opinions without any point-scoring. If only the politicians would follow our fine example!

Don't know about you Elegran but I've had to do a bit of mental dredging through the history lessons I've taught. Recently, DGS (just turned 5) was looking at 'paper money' and spotted Bruce and the spider on £20 note. Has proudly repeated the story to anyone who'll listen as they share the name. Have to admit that in his version there is mention of goodies and baddies. Will work on that! He was less interested in R. Burns on £10 note! Will work on that too!

I wonder what Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage would say if they knew that their debate has led to such an interesting discussion on the history and politics of these islands. It puts the whole thought of becoming a part of Europe into a different perspective. Please carry on, I'm finding it really interesting.

Note - Margaret not Mary. I wouldn't want to lead you astray among the Tudors. That was a dangerous time for many.