Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

I think what Jenni Murray has said is perfectly reasonable. Whether she's right is another matter entirely and I don't think we have enough information/knowledge yet to know. The point is that she's not wrong. It's a point of view. She's allowed to have a point of view that some people don't agree with and to express it openly.

Maybe there is no right or wrong about such things. Maybe it's all a bit confused and fuzzy. Like most things.

Germaine Greer was no-platformed at Cardiff University for saying the same thing.
I suppose it depends on your definition of woman. If it's a biological definition then it would be someone born with female sex organs.
That's then rather cruel to someone with a congenital or developmental abnormality who looks and feels female.

I totally agree with Jenni and why shouldnt we have the right to say it ? That is a statment of fact not fiction. When Germaine Geer made the same remark as Jenni the snowflake student population had a hissy fit and demanded she retract the statement or be banned from speaking at Cardiff Uni.

I agree with her too. x

I also agree with Jenni Murray and she was brave for saying so in public - no doubt she'll suffer for it.

Its a sorry state of affairs when 'liberals' are dictating that opinions are not allowed.

I don't think this is meant to be a 'liberal-bashing' thread.

The dictators are some members of the transgender lobby who seem to be quite vociferous when faced with anyone who begs to differ - nothing liberal about them.

It isn't a liberal-bashing thread, river. What misadventure said can be true without any thread-bashing taking place. She has made a simple statement. You can agree with it or disagree with it. The thread will still be intact.

I think she is right that some self-styled 'liberals' are trying to dictate what is allowed to be said. Otherwise why would Germains Greer, for instance, have been no-platformed? No-platforming is not liberal. That's why I used the phrase 'self-styled'.

I think misad's ironic point is that people who thought Germaine Greer's opinion was illiberal were acting illiberally themselves when they prevented her from expressing her opinion.

Bags sorry if I misinterpreted Misadventure.

Anyway, back to Jenni - there are demands for her to be sacked from the BBC - I don't think they dare!

Well, they will never be a "proper" woman I suppose, but there again, what is a "proper" woman. There are some athletes, are there not who are not "pure" feminine?
So where do transwomen fit in that respect if you see what I mean.
Does Jenni Murray say that some women are not women as well?

And who ultimately decides? A doctor?

Personally I feel a bit sorry for such people, and think people should be kind and understanding towards them. And not disrespectful.

I think such matters are on a sliding scale and not black and white at all.

I know a woman who can run rings around some men,physically, her husband included.

She cannot have children of her own because she was told that she did not have enough female hormones. So they adopted.
Is she a woman? Of course she is, as is plain to see by everyone with half an eye.

I don't think there is a decision to be made, this was just JM expressing her opinion. we can agree with her or not and have a right to an opinion. It does seem sometimes that anyone having a view which goes against the current trend is castigated.

I cant read the full article as it is behind a pay wall. But in the part I can read it says she felt anger towards a man who transistioned.

Ithink you can be sympathetic towards transgenders whilst still sharing JM's view Ankers.

There is a difference between those with a biological gender disorder, what used to be called intersex, but now called AIS, where someone is brought up as female, but actually has male chromosomes and those who have no biological disorder but psychologically feel they aren't in the correct body ( transgender) . There are some female athletes who have AIS, and people who have grown up as women, but when they try to have children , or don't have periods find out there is a hormonal / genetic disorder. Jenni was talking about people who have been brought up as male, have no biological disorders but transition to female for psychological reasons.

Found this
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/womans-hour-presenter-dame-jenni-murray-in-storm-over-transgender-comment_uk_58bc24cce4b05cf0f4012665

but psychologically feel they aren't in the correct body ( transgender)

Unless we have been there, I dont think someone else is going to know how they feel.
In that case, maybe being female has more to do with something innate rather than merely physical.

Ithink you can be sympathetic towards transgenders whilst still sharing JM's view Ankers

Good. Then I think the whole subject should be done with a whole lot of tact.

For what it is worth, why JM should be sacked is beyond me. Unless she is not being tactful. Though there are a whole lot worse things that she could do!

I think JM's real issue is that she feels she may have "struggled" being a woman in perhaps a man's world, and no transgender man to woman[she doesnt seem to be talking about woman to man] cannot possibly understand hers, and others' struggle?

The man that Jenni was angry with is now a female vicar. Jenni was discussing the struggle that women have had to go through to be ordained and the abuse that some female priests have had and are still in some cases going through. The vicar seemed oblivious of this struggle and was seemingly more concerned about what clothes and make up to wear for their first service.
A bit like Caitlyn Jenner saying the most difficult thing about transitioning was deciding what to wear!
Apologies for any pronoun misuse

Can't see how you can sack someone for sharing an opinion but no I don't agree with her Some transgenders have eaten slept dreamt about women and being a women since day 1 if anything they are more into being a woman than me who loves wearing jeans and would play footie and climb trees ( when younger) but don't have male hormones and wouldn't want them
I don't believe this can ever be a clear cut judgement call What about tom boys or girly men what are they? are they 'real' women or 'real' men
I think it's expressed poorly she is correct that a transgender man biologically can never be a 'real' woman but in feelings, thoughts, expressions they certainly can be