Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

Sometimes I dont think it is a hatred of men nina59, but a fear.
Some may have good reason after what they have been through?

I think though, that some of what happens, is that the younger generation live their lives with social media somewhat at the heart of that.
Whereas "in our day"[first time I have ever written that!]you might meet a few like-minded people about a subject, social media enables people to "meet" so many more "like-minded" people about a subject, which reinforces subject ideas. This heightens things?

Also I suppose, instead of just hearing what goes on in your own back yard as it were which may be a small pool of people and backgrounds, now younger people are "mixing" with people sometimes from all over the world. Not just younger people are doing that, older ones too, but perhaps the older persons' subjects of conversation are sometimes a bit narrower[dare I say ]

Most of the women here will have been for a smear test at some point, expecting a female nurse to do it. Imagine being told by the six-foot-plus, heavily built, bearded person in front of you, in their deep bass voice, that they are indeed a woman and will conduct your test. Now imagine you have previously been raped, as well.

And no, this isn't a hypothetical scenario. This happened recently to a friend. She in fact refused the test and made an official complaint which was upheld. Under the proposed Bill, she would have no grounds for complaint. I cannot believe women are happy for this kind of situation it be enshrined in law.

LSP, thank you for the link to the petition.

SueDonim,it's only been recently that woman have performed such tests. The medical and legal profession have always been dominated by men. Both my children were delivered by male doctors.
I have to admit that at the time I was in so much agony that didn't really care if it was a well trained gorilla delivering the births.

I do take your point however but I personally don't want to get caught up in far extremes.

Indeed. I had a male midwife for one of my children's births. The point is, I was asked if I was happy to have him attend me (I was) and I wasn't told that he was actually a woman.

Also, many women have died for lack of female doctors. Culturally, it is unacceptable for some women to be attended by male-bodied medical staff. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-38918509

Anya - I'm surprised at how incredibly dismissive you are being of those of us who have concerns around trans issues, especially the proposed legislation that self identification is all that it will take for penised men to have a RIGHT to enter what were women only spaces. And the issue about such men being charged with rape as women - don't you think that matters or do you think we are making it up? IMO you are being incredibly naive at best and stupid at worst.

The thing about far extremes is that many laws cover that kind of situation precisely. Most people are not paedophiles but we have laws about it. Most people are not terrorists but we have laws about that. Ditto for gun ownership or money-laundering or human trafficking. Most people are law abiding but laws are needed for the outliers.

The idea of women with a penis being accused of sexual assault, or rape and the crime being listed as rape by a woman is abhorrent to me.

I'm also concerned about the idea of men who identify as women but have male sexual organs being allowed into spaces that women have fought hard and long to have. Women's Refuges would be a prime example. Dos violent or sexual offences are committed by men. Women and children who are placed in the (increasingly) rare resource that is a women's refuge will almost certainly be there because of extreme and prolonged violence from a male partner, possibly accompanied by death threats. Are we really saying its ok for that space to be used by men who identify as women.

I accept that there will be domestic violence within that group of individuals, as there is within lesbian or gay relationships. Maybe the activists could look at creating some safe spaces for their groups, as women's groups have done. I apologise if this view offends people. I worked with women who were subject to death threats and extreme, prolonged violence from male partners. I feel strongly that the hard fought for safe space shouldn't be lost or no longer feel safe for that group of women.

I agree about the concern about women's spaces (toilets, changing rooms, refuges etc.)- it would be a huge backward step to lose those. And the idea of rape being logged as having been perpetrated by a woman when the criminal used a penis for the crime is utter lunacy.

I suppose what strikes me most forcefully though is the sheer barminess of it all. I appreciate that some people do feel as if they were born in the wrong body and that must be a sore trial for them; but to believe that this can be made better by just making an announcement that you are now a woman or man flies in the face of logic. If I said black was white, would I have the right to be believed?

I guess I will now just be labelled a dinosaur - hey ho - back to my cave.

I'll to that nina

Rigby present me with a rational argument and I'll listen. But much of what I'm reading is similar to the hysteria generated when homosexuality was decriminalised, unless you're too young to remember that.

Iam you don't just get accepted into Women's Refuges willy-nilly (!) You have to be a victim of domestic violence and the people who run these places are very canny. I wasn't allowed in myself when visiting a friend without the more rigid scrutiny. Anyone who has rolled up at these places will testify to this,

Re public toilets. There's no one normally on duty in places like supermarkets to stop anyone of either sex going in whatever one they chose to at the moment. And those that are 'manned' are by virtue of that much safer.

I'm not saying there isn't a window of opportunity for the determined abuser to slip through. What I am saying is that the majority on transgender people are not sex attackers or abusers of adults or children. If some are thinking this is an opportunity for sexual predators to seek out and find unsuspecting victims, that possibility exists, but then these opportunities exist in any situation already.

I think some of you need to look through a different lens and not one of hysteria. Yes, I realise that there are valid concerns. I support them.
But just all these men who have paved the way for the medical treatments now. And you're telling me you're scared of men in white coats?
It was a man that stopped women dying in childbirth! I'm takling about the Western world. Please don't muddy the debate with Eastern culture.

www.biography.com/people/groups/discovery-medical

Afghanistan women live in Britain. My daughter-in-law is Muslim. She abides by cultural rules of her religion. Is she to subsume her culture to another person's rights?

As for men making medical breakthroughs, whilst I am appreciative of such discoveries, maybe that's because women for centuries weren't allowed to be doctors or many other things in the UK and still aren't in other areas of the world.

I'm not anti-men. I have a loving husband, two wonderful sons and a dear son-in-law as well as two cute grandsons.

BTW I have no problem having a smear (or giving birth) with a male in attendance - can't see the problem with that, as long as they are not pretending they are a woman.

SueDonim - Marie Curie? Elisabeth Kubler Ross? They were both pioneering women.

I think one problem that's held women back is that they were led to believe they could not succeed. But clearly some did. Amelia Earhart springs to mind and so does Condoleeza Rice and Hilary Clinton. So it's not that the options are not there, it's the belief systems that are being put in place by feminists who are still yelling 'we're not equal'. For goodness sake, we are! We always have been. Laws haven't always helped and men have tried to take control but in our Western world today we are equal. If we send this message to our girls, I believe they will take on board taht they can indeed become whatever they want to be. They're not going to do this if they think they're not equal. Self belief is everything.

Men who commit crimes can say they are women and be put in women only prisons?

Ankers, have you seen Cell Block H?

No. Why?

Australian women's prison TV series. I don't think any man posing as a woman would last very long.

I was thinking that myself, nina, but didn't want to appear 'sexist'!

Nina1959, do you really believe that women have been treated equally and that the only reason women have failed to reach the highest levels is lack of self-belief? To go to the very top, look at the Nobel prize awards. Men vastly outnumber women in total (20:1) and in 2016 not one single woman won a prize. metro.co.uk/2016/10/13/none-of-the-nobel-prize-winners-for-2016-are-women-and-thats-unacceptable-6190870/

Can that discrepancy really be because women lack self-belief?

My mother, now 89yo, was held back from progressing in life by her own father, who demanded she gave up education at 17 to look after her ailing mother. She is a very intelligent woman and could have done something with her life. It wasn't lack of self-belief that stopped her, it was society's expectations. Her father would not have expected any son to do the same.

As for your list of two successful women, however many you cite, they will always be outnumbered by men.

SueDonim - I do see your point and am not disagreeing. I wrote an article about how women have evolved in the last 100 years and have a slightly different viewpoint.
I once read a book called The Wheel of Life by Elisabeth Kubler Ross. She said the same thing, her father tried to stop her from becoming what she wanted. But what really gripped my thinking was that she did it no matter what. It cost her but she did it. So I think for a lot of women, bravery and motivation got them a lot farther if they were prepared to stand up to any obstacles. A lot of women would have bowed down under pressure. But a lot didn't and they went far. Reading about these women has inspired me all my life and so I now have the attitude that we may well come up against rules and dinosaurs but pushing past them gets us through. In other words not believing we're sunk. I do accept that for some women it wasn't ever possible but since WW11, we have really turned a corner.

Ana - smiling at the excrutiating thought.

Hysterical, another word only ever used against women, funny that.

As for women's shelters, it's already happened in Canada where these laws have passed. Jessica Hambrook, a convicted sexual predator gained access to a women's shelter and she is not the only one. She attacked 4 vulnerable women in the shelter, that's 4 too many for me.

Again male doctors, not a problem for me but it would have a huge impact on lots of women who will not seek medical attention if they can't see a female doctor.

I am actually really upset about the way some posters have spoken about me, I have been factual and provided evidence as far as I can.

You can see why women don't speak up, thank goodness for women like Jenni Murray who are willing to raise this issue.

Having lived in France for 16 years I think gender stereotypes and sexual attitudes are rather unusual in the UK. Though I identify more with UK feelings.
I had to go for an internal echography of my genital system, and was very surprised that it was done by a man. I was also rather worried because there wasn't a nurse 'chaperone', not even a female secretary in the building.
I was ok, but would never go again. But french ladies didn't seem to bat an eyelid about it.

Nina, I think it's akin to victim-blaming to say to other women 'Well, I did it, so should you.' Not everyone has the same depths of reserve. It's the same as people wondering why women living with violent partners don't just leave. It isn't that simple especially if they have children. Where can they go? How can they get money? What if their partner finds them again? Sometimes they believe it's better to remain with the devil they know.

You only need to quickly Google to see how women are still not treated equally, even in the UK. Women earn less than men, they are discriminated against in pregnancy and motherhood and figure far less in high level employment.

Women are still regarded as sex objects and told to adhere to certain dress codes such as high heels/short skirts in the workplace. Far more women are killed or injured by their male partners than vice versa.

My own daughters both have high self-esteem (one works in local government, one is a student doctor) but that will not solve all the problems of discrimination against them. They need the law to protect them, too.