Michael Jackson

HurdyGurdy Perhaps you should watch the whole programme instead of keep falling asleep and then judging on a few minutes here and there. Just saying ...

Well said nightowl and "Magicwriter*.

My heart goes out to all those abused......

Absolutely right nightowl.
Nothing so horrific but so close to home that it never has been and now never will be discussed.

HurdyGurdy, you obviously inhabit a different planet if you think an adult " sleeping with " children is OK. As if any amount of money would even touch the sides of the bills these victims will pay for therapy.

KatyK

And mcem for you too

Thank you nightowl I wasn't looking for sympathy. Just saying that sometimes we need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I know you weren’t KatyK but I appreciate you sharing your experiences to help people understand.

I always felt so sorry for him. He was clearly phobic about so many things and anyone with a phobia needs sympathy and understanding, not further condemnation.

Rich men have always been able to do what they like, and to pay off those they abuse. MJ was no different- his actions were those of a pedophile and he paid off the families of the little children he wanted to be with. The idea that all these men would now be making the story up, is beyond belief.

Even if they aren’t making it up - and who knows? - why on earth make a television programme about it? Do we need to know? I don’t. Cheap scandalmongering for the delectation of those who enjoy that sort of thing.

Hurdygurdy as you slept through most of it it would have been best to make no comment than the lighthearted post you did make

Grandma70 that is a terrible post and I m sorry to be blunt, a hugely blinkered opinion Its time to open your eyes and realise that this is a huge subject that has been swept under the carpet for generations The programme was factual, no hysteronics or sensationalising and to call it ‘cheap scandalmongering for those that enjoy that sort of thing’ says more about you than the people posting on here who have understanding and compassion for the subject
Your post has made me feel very angry so in answer to your inane question do we need to know The answer is YES and as you seem to have so little understanding you of all people need to know

Yes, we need to know that paedophilia exists, and always has. We do know that now. I don’t feel we need to know specific details about Michael Jackson (or anyone else) turned into basically entertainment. Because that is what it was. What exactly have we gained from knowing these details? We don’t even know if they are true. I think it’s just prurience.

What do we gain ! You really need to ask ? we gain knowledge, we gain openness, we gain the right to out these paedophiles, to try and open people eyes to what is going behind closed doors It’s the very nature of its secracy that gives it power

You calling it ‘entertainment’ well that says a whole lot about you, the programme wasn’t done in any way to titalate or give pleasure it was done to give information and facts and to try and impart some understanding about a subject that has always been hidden....it needs bringing out into the open, it needs to stop people being afraid to know it exists if there was a programme about an earthquake killing people would you call that entertainment ?

I hope no one in your family ever needs to talk to someone about abuse

Bluebelle I am sure the program was made for one reason only - same as every program other than government-sponsored public information broadcasts. That is to make money for the company who made it.

Let me address your point about gaining knowledge and outing the pedophiles. We already knew about this. At the time of his trial most of this information including some specific details were in the public media - you know how it is in america, there is no rule about witnesses, victims, or suspects speaking on TV in legal cases. We already had the knowledge of everything these men had to say.

But now, these victims have children, and now these children who may have lived in relative anonymity are going to have other kids at school saying "your dad's gay" "Your dad's a pedo lover" or whatever other poorly understood taunt they can come up with. One hopes they were not allowed to actually see the documentary, but parents sometimes talk to each other infront of kids then it gets around.

Oh come on, BlueBelle!. There is no remote connection between a programme about an earthquake killing people and a programme about people describing in detail what they say MJ did to them.

We talk about everything in my family, believe me. As I have already said, I am in no way denying that the fact of abuse needs to be put in the open. It wasn’t when I was young. It is now. That’s good. We still don’t need two long programmes about a specific case, only notable because the alleged perpetrator is (for some reason beyond my comprehension) famous.

I won't be watching it as I would find it depressing and sad. A quick glance at the 2 men who have made the allegations tells me all I need to know. They are broken.

No way in a million years was Jackson acting in an honourable way.

BlueBelle Well said again!!

When light is shone in these dark corners, "lost children" (even if they are now adults) may be able to think about their own situations and feel less alone.

Yes, Lily65, you're right, the 2 men are broken ... their mothers are broken, the brother and sister of Wade Robson are broken, Robson's father committed suicide - and these 2 brave men are just the tip of the iceberg, and because they have had the courage to speak up, others are now coming forward.

I salute them.

And if I can add to Sparklefizzs posts Jackson’s own daughter has tried to commit suicide more than once and has tattoos to hide her self harming scars The youngest child lives as a partical recluse with his grandmother he is so shy this is the legacy of being bundled around with faces covered and who knows what else or what they saw
There is a huge volume of mistrust, sadness and harm around Jackson and his family and yes I think he was badly damaged by his own family but his abuse does need airing in just the same way Jimmy Savilles was There is no difference both are dead so escaped punishment

And Jackson's daughter was photographed with a bong recently, and has used drugs for years. And let's not forget that "Blanket", the youngest child, was dangled over an upper floor balcony by MJ when he was a toddler.

As BlueBelle says, who knows what else they saw or experienced.

I am ashamed that since this film people in the UK are buying MJ's music again, whereas in the US sales have slumped. Each time his music is played in a public place or purchased, it is supporting the Jackson Estate. MJ was always a cash cow for the rest of the Jacksons, and although I used to enjoy his music and do think he had great talent, my heart is far more with the children he damaged - other people's and his own.

I too side with these men, and any others living in silence because of what wicked things were forced upon them.
I have thought this for years, I didn't need the documentary to shed any light on it but if it makes people more aware that this man has ruined lives, then so be it

Sparklefizz - “Perhaps you should watch the whole programme instead of keep falling asleep and then judging on a few minutes here and there. Just saying ...”
I haven’t been in position to watch both programmes in their entirety yet, but I do intend to.

Lily65 – “you obviously inhabit a different planet if you think an adult " sleeping with " children is OK. As if any amount of money would even touch the sides of the bills these victims will pay for therapy.”
I have re-read my post twice now, and nowhere in it can I find the part where I said I thought it was ok for an adult to sleep with children. Can you please quote the exact part of my post that you interpreted as my saying so.

I don’t know if Jackson was guilty or not. I wasn’t there. We can all choose our sides based on which side we choose to believe. Both sides have their own agendas to promote.

I don’t think the level of detail shared was necessary. It was audio porn. And I would think any paedophile watching would have been loving the descriptions.

I was abused by my uncle from around the age of 8 until the age of 14, when I made the choice to never seen him again. I’ve never spoken in detail about what he did to me – no one needs to know. But I talk about it in general terms when appropriate, and I have never managed to say more than a sentence without becoming tearful about it. I was in a training course last year (completely unrelated to abuse) and myself and four of my colleagues all ended up speaking of being abused – not in explicit detail – and we all ended up in tears. I don’t understand how anyone can be emotionless when talking about such traumatic events.

Admittedly I’ve not seen the whole programme yet, but from what I did see, the two men were too matter of fact about the things they were describing – which were absolutely awful – for it to ring true to me. Just my opinion, based on my own experience and reactions.

Readymeals As I understand it, you believe that any documentary is automatically suspect because it will have been made by a company who will make a profit on it.

Where does that place all those documentaries that have examined really serious issues and brought them into the public gaze. Are they all to be dismissed and ignored because the company concerned is a commercial company.

I think this program served a very serious purpose. So many people were dazzled by this man his music and his money. In the same way that in this country Jimmy Saville, did something similar on a smaller scale. Both men were surrounded by persistent rumours of misbehaviour, but these were ignored because they made so much money for themselves and other people.

It is also a study of how paedophiles manipulate children. As this thread has shown there is a belief that paedophiles groom and then attack children, but these documentaries have shown just how subtle the seduction can be so that the children are made complicit in their own abuse and it takes them many years to realise what actually happened to them.I certainly found it revelatory.

HurdyGurdy I am sorry to hear about your experiences.

Not all of us are the same as you re showing our emotions. Men often try to keep their feelings under wraps, especially if they feel that once they start crying they will never stop. Couldn't you see the trauma in their faces? I really thought it showed.

MJ himself said that he shared a bed with various small boys. Why would a man do that? How do you explain it yourself or justify it?

His sister also outed him back in the 1990s for abusing young boys. Why would she say that?

Also in the 1990s 2 Mexican boys accused him of assault but the charges were dropped, although an FBI file was opened on him.

The 2 men in the documentary, plus their wives, their mothers, and the brother and sister of one of them - are you saying that they were all lying? That they are all absolutely amazing should-be-Oscar-winning actors?

We know that MJ shared the bed with children, that he had security locks and alarms leading up to his bedroom so that no one could approach the room without him being aware, we know from his housekeeper that he showered with whichever boy was staying with him - why did Jackson do all of this? Are you saying that he did it all but without any sexual abuse? Doesn't showering with a young naked child constitute abuse in your eyes?

I watched a documentary about MJ many years ago when he was going through one of the court cases. I felt very uneasy to see a young boy lying across his lap.

I just don't understand how anyone, not just you HurdyGurdy (I am not picking on you) can explain away these things, and many many others. There have been 5 accusations by young boys against MJ, plus also the 2 Mexican boys. Are they all lying in your opinion?

And for all the people who say "I don't know because I wasn't there", I just hope you never have to sit on a jury because that would be no excuse whatsoever.