Michael Jackson

It seemed to me that the abuse was possible only because of MJ's enormous fame. He was a bright star of the music world and had been for a long time. You cannot underestimate the way ordinary people fawn over famous people.
After all look at the all the people who "love" the royals and P.Harry.......for what reason? Just that they are famous.
The mother's were stupid to be taken in but at the same time everyone saw MJ as a shining star and they were naive.

I don't think the two men are speaking up for the money after seeing them talk. They looked so sad. And why now? I believe them when they say it is because it took becoming fathers themselves to young boys to understand the evil that had taken place before.
One of them said that he had loved MJ so much he would have done anything MJ asked including lying in court....as both the boys did. And they were boys back then , not men.

I watched both episodes, a long, painful watch and I'm still not entirely sure either way. I had also recently rewatched an older documentary about MJ where it focused on his lost childhood and how he loved to try creating a magical childhood and mixing with children. I'd felt sorry for him then, he seemed quite an innocent.
Very different view of him now, but still not 100% sure of his guilt.
The two men talked about why they testified for him back then and both still say they love him, that he was kind and loving and they idolised him, but that he sexually abused them.
We'll probably never really know.

I know someone who was sexually abused and it is very hard for her as an adult. One of the abusers is now dead, she read the obituaries in the local.papers so she knew that he was gone. To be able to speak out about it is. Very hard, some people just can't face doing it you have to relive that horrible experience. Some people need to get to a certain point before they speak out about it. And if someone told you that you'd go to prison if you told the truth what child wouldn't lie
I missed the bit about non disclosure agreements, which I guess explains the staff. But how can it be legal to stop someone reporting a crime, I don't understand that

Well said Oodles.

Some people feel that they know famous people that they admire, especially younger people. I was like it myself with my idols The Beatles. It's only as you get older that you realise that of course you haven't a clue about them. You see what they want you to see. They are putting on a show, which is why it's called show business.

Of course they would give their lives sooner than ‘tell’ on him he had bought them with his ‘kindness’ his presents holidays, his playtime, his undivided attention they felt so special he’d even bought one set of parents a house, He was not a frightening abuser he did it all gently bit by bit with love care and attention, he groomed them from the age of 7 when a baby doesn’t even know what sex is

Why did they only now come forward? for ten years I worked with survivors of childhood abuse the time they nearly all came for help and to disclose often for the very first time was when they had children of their own that reached the age they were when they were first abused, it happened time after time Their child was them and they were terrified
I truly hope no one can see those two family men and not believe every word they said

These documenteries show us how active pedophile aggression impacts upon not only the child, and the adult that the child becomes, but also the parents of the victim, and his brothers, sisters, and spouse.

The delusion of adoration towards celebrities must stop, and children be forewarned not to be deluded about celebrity .

Goodness HannahLoisLuke, how much has to be said/done/shown to convince you? I'm shocked.
With people like you around, no wonder victims never want to come forward.
As BlueBelle says, "I truly hope no one can see those two family men and not believe every word they said."

White mother. May not be genetically his children. I think despite his fame and wealth he had a bad childhood and psychological problems. I don’t know what to make of the current allegations, certainly not normal for a grown man to sleep in the same bed as other people’s children!

I haven't watched all the documentary but what struck me was the boy who was ten who appeared in the Pepsi ad and danced on stage with him. There was footage of him always in the car with MJ ,on planes etc and yet no one thought that was strange. Did these boys not have school to go to either? It's different times we live in now, I'm not saying it couldn't happen again but he was grooming those boys in plain sight of the press, etc. Yes I agree that the patents were groomed too and blinded by the wealth and extravagance and the fact that someone like MJ wanted to be friends with them. It so sad. I worry what kind of life his children really had there is no way it could be normal.

In the end it does seem that if someone has a strange and unconventional way of life there may be more unconventional things that are hidden and they may not just be a harmless eccentric.

I'm not getting embroiled in the " coloured" thing but I think we can safely say "full blooded negro" is best consigned to the past.

They were probably absolutely terrified while he was alive. He threatened them and their families.

Sparklefizz how rude to say ‘with people like you around’ when someone is trying to weigh up whether or not a documentary is presenting the facts. We all need to assess what is being alleged. You cannot just blindly accept everything in the media as fact.

Victims deserve a fair hearing, yes. But so do those alleged to be peadophiles. No every allegation is true. I personally know a child who made false allegations against a HT I used to work with.

Pretty obvious though this time putting all the ‘clues’ together Anja

Do you know how few victims ever speak out because of fear Can you imagine a child telling its mother and not being believed it happens so often (I m not referring to the Jackson case but child abuse in general) I imagine a false accusation is a tiny tiny percentage compared to what has happened but not been acknowledged or believed

Anja I never blindly accept anything, in the media or out of it.

I'm sorry if my post came across as rude but I just can't believe that people are judging these young boys who appeared in court (a terrifying experience for adults let alone young children who have been threatened), and cannot see the terrible pain and trauma written across their faces.

Today it's reported that the FBI had a file on MJ because 2 boys in Mexico had alleged assault.

I agree BlueBelle - "pretty obvious in this case".

if this was an ordinary man no-one would be making excuses for him........

Sparkle fizz I'm not saying I don't believe the two men, and although the evidence seems compelling I'd still like to know why all the other boys he "befriended" have refused to speak out.
I remember the Jordan Chandler case and the fact he was paid off to the tune of millions. That made me think, but he's never come forward to tell his story as far as I know.
All I'm saying is it's not as cut and dried as it might appear from this film. There's an an awful lot more to the story.
By the way, I'm not, and have never been a MJ fan.

I dont care what skin colour he is.

I would be very concerned about MKs general behaviour and any effects of his sexualised behaviour could have caused his children and any other children he has been with.
It is often a behaviour that the perptrators cannot easily stop.
There must be many of MKs hangers on or who are still trying to get money out of his behaviour blackmail.

Do not ever take the view, " Never mind he was a peadophile he sang well. "

Anja - "Sorry, but watching these documentaries it seems very possible that people are lying. I’ve been watching the body language and I’m not in the least convinced."

EXACTLY what I thought whilst watching the very short part that I did. I started off watching, fell asleep, and then woke up at a point where one of the boys was giving a VERY graphic description of what he allegedly experienced.

I watched a little bit more of the programme before falling asleep again, but the sense I got was that they were delivering a very well rehearsed speech.

I feel that if they were SO traumatised by what they had allegedly experienced, then even if they had been happy to take part in hours upon hours upon hours of interviews (for them all to be edited down into the two programmes) then surely SOME emotion would have shown on their faces. In the excerpts I saw? Zero emotion.

I am also mindful of the fact that you can't libel the dead (hence me saying "allegedly"), so they are free to say whatever they want to without fear of comeback. And no doubt were handsomely compensated for their time.

Am amazed that anyone who watched the whole of that documentary can still believe MJ was innocent. The boy who had the long hair when he was 7, you could see the sadness in his eyes when MJ was giving a ‘new’ child his affections. The one who was a dance choreographer was really successful until his mental health problems started to stop him from working so well. Why would they put themselves out there, describing exactly what happened to them, knowing they would be hated and probably humiliated. I felt so sad for them. And the Australian guys brother seemed to be nearly as affected by his brother. He was struggling to overcome his hatred for their mother. He blamed her for their fathers suicide as well as allowing his brother to be put in such a vulnerable position. I hope they can get through this and that it doesn’t affect their own families.

As for the debate about the colour of mixed race children, I had a white pal who had a relationship with a black guy and had a son who was totally black from his colour to his features, you would never have thought she was his birth mother, so, no one can really say if he was their biological father or not.

Sometimes victims of abuse find it hard to show emotion I believe.

Do people really have to ask why abused children do not speak out? Either at the time or as adults? What sheltered lives some people have led. They are fortunate. Or blinkered.

I am certain that amongst the very large membership of Gransnet, there will be very many individuals who have kept, and continue to keep their own experience of abuse secret.

nightowl ????????????????????????????????????
❤️

I think unless you've lived through it or a violent childhood, it's not really possible to say how you would react as an adult.
My own childhood left me pretty afraid to show emotion to this day. So who knows what these men are feeling.