Michael Jackson

DH and I watched the first 2hrs yesterday and I'd describe us as fairly cynical people, but we had no doubt that the two men were saying what had really happened. We felt sickened by the calculated grooming that went on, and even though I went through all the 'terrible childhood, lack of adequate role-models, isolated from reality' arguments, I was left feeling that I really don't want to hear any Michael Jackson music ever again - and I used to love it.

A court found him not guilty .these men spoke FOR him not against him in that case.

They were frightened children when they testified, Paddyann, and MJ had told them that both he and they would spend the rest of their lives in jail if they ever spoke of "the secret".

If you have watched the whole 4 hours of the film, and have seen the families, seen the men's wives, listened to their turmoil, I think it speaks for itself.

MJ will not, of course, be found guilty as such, just like Jimmy Saville.

I didn't watch it so can't really comment on whether I think the men are telling the truth. Generally, though, I don't think the vast majority of people who make accusations of abuse are likely to be lying. It must be such a humiliating and embarrassing thing to talk about.

I think Michael Jackson was a fabulous, talented entertainer. His dysfunctional childhood, with a bullying father who apparently kept calling him ugly, no doubt contributed to his weirdness.

Without him being alive to defend himself, he can't be pronounced guilty of abuse but neither can he pronounced innocent.

I suppose because I'm a great fan of his music, my grandchildren really like him too but I think don't think I'll encourage this from now on.

Well I am sure MJ was wealthy enough to fund his followers and his protection entorage to keep his nasty secrets as long he could afford it.
The rumours and such have been suspected for years.

A court found him not guilty .these men spoke FOR him not against him in that case. Money is the only reason they are back in the spotlight

Exactly paddyann.

And yes, I am cynical about this. Something seems distinctly off.,

Did he do those things? I think the balance of evidence shows he probably did. If he went shopping for jewellery with the one boy there must be sales staff who remember them. House staff surely knew what was going on.

He was certainly a strange adult male, living like a child. This would seem to have been a ploy to entrap innocent children. It would be naive to believe that all talented artists are good people.

I think a large portion of blame must surely rest with their negligent parents. I would never have left my child for a sleepover with a man/woman I didn't know. They let their boys down when they should have been taking care of them.

I think the reason Jackson got away with it is because everyone still thought of him as sweet little Michael.. Had one of his older brothers behaved in such a way with those boys people would have been more suspicious. I only saw part of the documentary, however. Often wonder about his marriage to the Presley girl. I don't think she's ever spoken about it publicly, has she?

It can sometimes be difficult to separate the artist and the music from their behaviour/beliefs, Wagner for example.

Having said that, whilst some of Michael Jackson's music could be considered to be among some of the best pop music of its time, his behaviour leaves it tainted to say the least.

I listened to a YouTube video about Gary Glitter whilst I was painting my bathroom a while back.

The girl he groomed married him at 16, and it wasn't until some years later that the enormity of what he had done dawned on her (and her parents, apparently - but I have to ask what on earth they were thinking when she used to go and stay with him at 14)

I have watched the whole gruelling 4 hours and MJ groomed the parents as well who were influenced by his fame, and flattered.

He was a paedophile in plain sight - always being photographed with children but very childlike himself with his toys and fairground at Neverland - it was a good cover. He has ruined lives.

I think he was an outstanding musician (not to my taste though) an outstanding showman, and am outstanding manipulator, who engineered things for his own ends.
I do believe he was childlike, in some ways, which is why he sought out young children, and replaced them as they grew up a little too much.

I didn't see all the program, just dipped in and out a bit. However I have just been talking it over with DD, who watched both program from beginning to end.

DD said that (probably like most people) she thought of paedophiles as people who groomed a child but where there was an element of force about the violation, but she said that with Jackson, because he was so childlike and lived in a playground, the boys didn't really see him as a man and because he was so subtle in his seduction of them and in the way he introduced abusive actions they did not really realise that they were being abused, it all seemed naturally part of a very 'special' relationship and to that extent was 'consensual', except that children as young as they were could not give consent to something they did not understand.

She also thought that it took them a long time to realise that what had happened to them was abuse and that they were more upset and damaged by discovering that what they thought was a close personal friendship with Jackson, was actually no more than a means to an end for him and once he lost interest in them physically they were out the door and replaced.

I totally agree it’s a very cynical soul who thinks they are not telling the truth

I am in tears watching these men in this film and the state they are in! How could anyone disbelieve them? My heart goes out to them.

If those two men were making it up, they were pretty convincing. One of them showed diamond rings Jackson had bought him. If he was after money, maybe he would have sold those by now.

I've watched most of this just bit more to see.

I wouldn't say the two men came from 'unsophisticated families' they seemed pretty well spoken.

I believe MJ is indeed a paedophile and treated them exactly as they mentioned.

MJ I've come to the conclusion was a very skilful manipulator. He had a penchant for little boys, but needed a cover to help him achieve his end. He built up a persona of the boy in the man's body. He loved to play, he liked childish things eating popcorn, watching cartoons.....having sleepovers. The vulnerable public along with the boys parents were taken in.

If you take Jimmy Savile he used the same MO. In his case became a fund raiser, help sick children, run marathons, raise much needed cash for hospitals. While all the time he was abusing kids behind closed doors.

I thought it quite relevant when these cases came up against JS, Rolf Harris and Jim Davidson.

JS and RH both supposedly pillars of the community. RH helped his local neighbourhood loved animals etc. Both putting on a front. When it came to Jim Davidson, he never pretended to be anything other than what he was, a rampant womaniser, but he proved he was no paedophile and the case was dropped.

Sadly we must never assume because someone is famous, they are beyond reproach

A court found him not guilty .these men spoke FOR him not against him in that case. Money is the only reason they are back in the spotlight
.Michael Jackson was without doubt one of the most talented artists of his time and beyond .His "odd" appearance in his later years is attributed to him trying to wipe his fathers features from his face ...the father who physically and mentally abused him and used him as a cash cow. He was a sad ,damaged boy and man ..but he's not here to answer the allegations so we shouldn't judge what we cant possibly know .

I’m not very well educated nor I think very worldly wise, but both js and mj always looked guilty as charged back in the day to me.
I was lucky I had very sensible upbringing I think.

Why did he pay vast sums of money for silence

There were always rumours floating around about Michael Jackson, even I knew about them and I have zilch interest in pop music.

It was no different, from the way rumours floated around about Jimmy Saville, and while rumours are neither facts nor evidence. The persistence of them around both men and the knowledge that Michael Jackson had reached legal agreements with the at least 2 boys over their relationships with him, does add corroboration to what is coming out now.

Anja having worked with abuse survivors for ten plus years I disagree I don’t think they were lying I think they were so overpowered and groomed by this rich playmate that they would have done anything for him The parents were also groomed and completely under his influence One father committed suicide the whole families were broken
There was nothing at all to indicate they would have jepodised their birth famïlies and their new families to lie about something that happened all those years back and to open up all their wounds

I didn't know what to make of it to be honest.

Sorry, but watching these documentaries it seems very possible that people are lying. I’ve been watching the body language and I’m not in the least convinced.

He could have fathered children without ever having to have physical contact with the mother.

Paedophiles, whether famous, like Michael Jackson and Jimmy Saville or your everyday neighbourhood variety, are very careful and clever in who they target, checking out not just the child but the whole family set up. Most of his targets came from unsophisticated families, not on the bread line, but not far above and he love bombed the whole family and dazzled them with his wealth.

I find it difficult to believe the parents could have been so unaware, but I think they were. Frankly I wouldn't have let my children anywhere near a man like him, like Saville, he always struck me as being a very peculiar and unsavoury person.

I'm amazed that there are people on here who don't feel that Michael Jackson was an amazing artist, both musically and in dance

As for his music, when he died and they kept playing his music on the radio, I recognised none of it and none of it stayed in my mind. I could say the same as the above about Beethoven or Mozart, but I realise that one person's amazing music is another persons noise.

I watched part of the documentary. What on earth were the parents of those boys thinking?