Boris..intensive care..

He sailed damn close to the wind though and implied quite a lot.

It's a journalistic tactic.
Implication without verification.

Well said emilymaria.
I can't understand the people who think he's been doing a marvelous job.

I've just realised what a distasteful thread this is. On the one hand we are not supposed to say anything nasty about Johnson because he is ill, on the other hand it is perfectly OK to pick apart, criticise and dismiss a piece of writing from a man who has just lost his brother. It is the usual right wing effort to justify the unjustifiable. The essence of his piece is absolutely right and if we had a better way of judging people, then perhaps someone with Downs syndrome would be regarded as far more valuable that someone who has a track record for lying nd cheating. As it is his assertation that the NHS can never be taken out of the political arena because it was built and is maintained through the efforts of one party is absolutely true. It is just ironic that the people Johnson and his party refused to fund properly are now saving his life.

On a now deleted tweet Harry Paterson said his brother was economically inactive and therefore expendable. As for herd immunity being a cynical ploy to get rid of pensioners and therefore save on benefit payments - get a grip. Just propaganda. Sweden is doing the exact same thing. It may well backfire on them; only time will tell. For the record, I’m not on twitter but two of my sons are plus a couple of friends and they have told me this person is backtracking and is certainly being challenged. Whatever the true story of his late brother, this Harry has tried to turn his death into a Tory bashing exercise and insinuated Boris was privileged and received a ventilator and his brother died through lack of one. I find that reprehensible.

I've been reading and pondering this thread all day and for me, it depends on why the writings of a man who has lost his brother to covid 19 was presented here on GN in the first place.

If it was to have a go at BJ who is now in ICU because he has the virus, which in my opinion was the reason, it was and is in extremely bad taste.

I agree trisher that this is indeed a distasteful thread however, I see no irony in the fact "that the people Johnson and his party refused to fund properly are now saving his life". That is what they do, that's the reason we are so indebted to them and that's the reason why every Thursday at 8.00pm so many of us applaud them.

@notanan2
Oh cor blimey!! Someone forgot to check there's enough gas! [facepalm]

Someone should check whether they paid the water rates this quarter, and if they paid the lekky bill. Pronto!

Can this whole shebang get any more Dad's Army?!

[Oh wait, there's a guy round the back of the incinerators, says he can find us coupla hundred tanks of oxy for 50grand...]

NHS workers are dying because this government have still not supplied them with protective clothing that could save their lives, THAT is what I find distasteful. And I will not clap for anyone who is part of a government that cheered when nurses were not given a pay rise and now can't even make their work safer.

Spot on yet again Labaik.

My daughter and son in law are GPs and they have now got the correct protective equipment. I can’t speak for any others though.

I'm really glad to hear it maddyone.

I am with you on this Labaik

Every NHS Trust has its own Procurement Officer maybe they should have had their eyes on the ball especially as they are paid handsomely???

I think it's the governments responsibility to prepare for probable pandemics, not the NHS. Bit shabby shifting the blame to the NHS themselves [which is also what the government try to do at the daily briefings]. Were you outside clapping last week Grannygravy; if so methinks it was a bit two faced.

No doubt had any procurement officer stockpiled enough PPE to last through an epidemic GG13 would have castigated them for wasting money before this happened.

Forgetting about Boris for a minute, do you really think the doctors and nurses who are doing such a fantastic job looking after so many would pick and choose over who to offer a ventilator to and who not. Yes perhaps if it is the case of elderly very ill person and a young fit and healthy person but are they really going to say let’s not save this man because he’s economically inactive and expendable. Is that really what you think the NHS do.
If Mr Paterson’s brother has died in the circumstances he’s suggested then I am sorry for him but to direct unpleasant thoughts and words to others in this time of crisis is not on.
Even if he thought Boris would save himself over Mr Paterson’s brother does he really think the NHS would be complicit in this.

paddyanne Tue 07-Apr-20 11:43:26

' Harry Paterson from Nottingham is very much a real person who lost his brother ebcause there was NO VENTILATOR for him.I'd guess they'll find "spares" for tory government who appear to be getting Herd Immunity by stealth .NO ONE wished Boris dead ,not Harry not Me ...take off your rose tinted specs ladies ,Boris is not his image ,he;s not sone cuddly bumbling bear .Wait until its one of yours in ahospital with no ventilators and see how you feel about him then"
----

Notanan raised his response to a question put to him. The question was:-

" I am very sorry that you lost your brother to this awful disease. Are you saying specifically that there was no ventilator available for him and that the lack of ventilation caused his death? I did not think that we had reached the stage where there was a lack of availability and I thought that if it was the case, then younger people, like your brother, with a better chance of survival, would be favoured."

Harry Paterson replied:-

" No. He was denied a ventilator. Even before he needed one. We were told by ‘phone that that was the decision, made in advance. Along with the decision to slap a DNR on him without any discussion, much less agreement, with anyone. A cynic might wonder if that was the case because he had Downs Syndrome and was ‘economically inactive.’"
---

Harry Paterson in his tweet that aroused so much difference of opinions stated :-

" My brother, sadly, wasn’t lucky. Jas, 54, died of Covid-19 in Nottingham’s Queens Medical Centre a week last Saturday night. Unlike the Prime Minister there was no ventilator for Jas."

So taking aside the fact Patterson is a known anti Tory left wing activist/author who has perfectly established credentials on that front I now understand that his comment ' No ventilator for Jas ' did not mean there were NO VENTILATORS in Queens Medical for use for patients as portrayed and accepted as being the issue by posters as being the case to hit out at Boris Johnson. He meant there was ' No ventilator for Jas ' because it was a decision by the care team at Queens Medical, for reasons we are not party to, to make such a medical decision.

That makes it a lot clearer. I think it is only fair to the hard working NHS staff at Queens Medical who will have to make such decisions both before/during and after COVID 19 the matter was made clear.

Yes they would Doodle no doubt they would wrap it up in medical jargon which would obscure the real reason but they would do it. After all who wants to be the doctor or the hospital that let the PM die?

Yes they would Doodle no doubt they would wrap it up in medical jargon which would obscure the real reason but they would do it. After all who wants to be the doctor or the hospital that let the PM die?

That is simply not how the medicine works.

People who are not given ventillation are not given it because they would still die on it or shortly after. And it is a horrific way to go.

Drs are not chosing who to let live and who to let die. They are identifying the ones who would die anyway so they can have a slightly more dignified death out of ITU.

If Boris was in that category there is no fancy ventillator or other piece of ITU kit that would "save" him. He is there because he has a chance of pulling through and emerging with some quality of life. Thats it. Thats all.

You really think these doctors and nurses who are putting their lives and that of their families at risk to look after us would do that trisher. Well you think what you like but I don’t.

Ventillation is violent. It is physically and mentally traumatic. It would be utterly wrong to do it to someone who is going to despite it.

The type of anaesthetics required for full ventillation are not the same as the anaesthetics used to ease distress in palliative care. ITU drugs commonly cause powerful and distressing hallucinations and horrors.

I do not know what type of ITU support BJ is needing but none of it is pleasant or without consequences. You dont get to give medical interventions for the heck of it. All of the team, junior to senior, must believe that the benefits outweigh the risks or they could not be complicit

If BJ was NOT a good candidate for ITU survival, and a Dr did it anyway. THAT would have them hauled over hot coals. And the junior staff would refuse too

"Ventillation is violent. It is physically and mentally traumatic. It would be utterly wrong to do it to someone who is going to die despite it."

Your posts make sense notanan, thank you for explaining fully. But I fear your flogging a dead horse to some, who are adamant in their beliefs that medical care is given on some kind of hierarchical structure, not on individual medical need or suitability.

Oh and it could kill you. Being sedated, intubated and on a ventillator

You have to be pretty sure that its going to do someone more good than harm before putting them on a ventllator

notanan2 I know all that, you do like to tell us all how things work don't you. I also know that if it came to choosing being PM would count for something. and saying it wouldn't is simply ignoring reality. Posting about all the horrors of being on a ventilator is just trying to distract. And junior staff rarely argue or dispute with senior staff, in fact if anyone makes a complaint staff unite to make sure it can't be proven.