Boris..intensive care..

People aren't always refused ventilators because they wouldn't respond to treatment. They are being refused them because there are not enough to go round. People who were getting better have been taken off them because they are needed for people with a better long-term prognosis, ie younger and/or fitter. Maybe if there were enough, the older and those with underlying health issues might have a chance to recover and have a few more years of life.

This has happened in Europe and in the USA. Maybe it is happening here, maybe not. Maybe it will in the future.

Doodle, the NICE guidelines say that the doctors can't choose on the basis of things like mental ability but GPS have been sending letters to patients with learning difficulties, which say they are probably too frail for that type of intervention. Unless you think Mencap is lying? As I said, it is policy in some American states.

But you cannot tell who will pull through and who will not. People are put on ventilators to give them a chance. To provide oxygen when their body is too tired or too ill for them to breath for themselves.

Statistics seem to say its a 50-50 chance once you get to that stage.

If anyone wants to learn what it’s like in ICU they could do worse than to read Critical by Dr Matt Morgan, an ICU specialist.

It’s a brutal place to be.

One ‘friend’ of Boris’ on TV tonight said he’s about 5’9”or 10” and weights 16 stone. This puts him in the obese range which is a risk factor plus he is male and they seem to be over represented in ICUs.

My father was in ICU for several weeks before he died. Luckily we were allowed to visit. He was ventilated. Not nice.

tickingbird, propaganda? Hardly that simple as there's obviously a balancing act between protecting the economy and losing too many lives.

We can't stay in lockdown for ever (because of the economy) and when restrictions are lifted, another wave of infections and deaths will follow.

People aren't always refused ventilators because they wouldn't respond to treatment. They are being refused them because there are not enough to go round

There have been occassional times when the national ITU bed pool has been down to the last few and people have had to be transferred many miles from home to have one.

But we are not at that stage even now

Pikachu, even in normal circumstances, ventilators are for people with a reasonable chance of recovery. It's pointless putting somebody on one if there's little to no chance of them being able to breathe alone afterwards.

True; but we'll know a lot more about the virus by then. Existing drugs that may possibly help in the early stages. NHS should be better equipped to deal with new cases. And hopefully we should have good tests available. I agree about ICU; a friend of mine was put in an induced coma for a while and suffered from terrible nightmares afterwards.

On channel 4 news this evening there was an interview with the family of a man who died last week of covid-19. This man worked in the NHS for 20 years as a nurse. it seems that he caught the virus from a patient who, at the time, was not showing any symptoms. He had no PPE. He developed symptoms, self isolated and became worse. The helpline was contacted 4 times. The family were told each time that he should continue in self isolation. One evening they heard him collapse in the loo. The son had to break the door down in order to get him out. An ambulance came, took him to hospital and he died.

This is the way some of our health care workers are treated. Surely by now they should have all the PPE and everything else that they need to stay well.

Actually anaesthetists are pretty good at judging who will survive an anaesthetic and who wont, even if this virus is novel, anaesthetics is anaesthetics and for some people their condition or risk factors means that the anaesthetics itself will kill them, or that they are u likely to sucessfully wean back off them, whatever the disease causing them to need it

We won't forget the sheer bravery of NHS and care workers, determined to do their best, despite having to re-use disposable single use masks and wrap themselves in bin bags for lack of protective clothing. It's a national disgrace that testing and PPE are so delayed at this stage.

Hetty, as I've said on another thread this evening, Great Britain is not the only country who is struggling to provide health care workers with the most basic of supplies. Doctors and nurses in Greece, Spain, Italy, France, USA and most of the rest of the world are also crying out for more equipment; both to protect themselves and to provide adequate care to patients. Why do you think that it's only the NHS who is in this position? It's a worldwide pandemic. Don't you read the news about what's going on around the rest of the world?

For goodness sake I wish everyone would listen to notanan. She knows what she’s talking about, maybe she was a medic, I don’t know, but she clearly knows she’s talking about. Ventilation is done only for people who are likely to survive undamaged from the treatment. There is no hierarchy, it is need that determines allocation, and the likelihood of a good outcome.

As I said maddyone, she's flogging a dead horse to some who don't want to hear it.

And that is the reason why some of us would not be offered the treatment, because as older people who (in many cases) have serious underlying health conditions, the outcome would not be good. So carry on staying in ladies, and gents, because it’s the best chance of survival for us all.

nitanan

I find there to be no hint if 'distraction' in your posts as mentioned was the case by a previous poster.

In fact I appreciate the points you have raised and your attempt to bring a pragmatic and honest approach to posts that are not necessarily displaying the likewise.

Thanks. But I don't have nits

I know someone who's an anaesthetist and they're absolutely terrified of catching the virus because they are so exposed to it when putting people on ventilators if they don't have adequate protection.

Oops.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/the-road-to-recovery-for-covid-19-patients
This is a pretty good explaination of why you have to be pretty strong before going into ITU, in order to be capable of recovering afterwards

My son and his colleagues are now on the ventilation team in a big city hospital. They are not doctors or nurses, but clinicians with experience in ventilation of patients with respiratory conditions eg COPD.
Their clinics have been cancelled and they are preparing and testing all the ventilators they can lay their hands on.
They have been fitted for their masks and shown training videos of how to put on PPE.
I hope and pray that the PPE is there when they need it.

notanan
Thank you for that link, it explains the situation very clearly, including the fact that up to now, only a third of patients who have been put on a ventilator have survived once off the ventilation. Obviously as time moves on, the stats may change.
Thank you also for your continued robust explanations of ventilation and what is involved, to be honest I’m surprised you haven’t lost the will to live by now after explaining over and over again.

chewbacca
I agree, she really must feel as if she’s flogging a dead horse today.