Have I just lost a friend?

Sweden has only twice the population, but more than four times the deaths from C-19 [2,194] as compared to Denmark [422] and Norway [201], its closest neighbours.

The Swedish people are practicing some social distancing, but clearly the statistics demonstrate that their tactics are not as efficient in preventing deaths as their neighbours.

I am wondering what will happen next. Each infected person only has to infect 1 person for the numbers to stay the same. Whereas we know being open completely the numbers rise very fast indeed. Can we stamp this out completely? I don't feel we can, even if China say they have done so.

So we've flattened the CV curve... but now our non CV lockdown deaths are rising.

There wont be a net benefit to lockdown

Also, flattening the curve results in less morbidity and death-

Only because the initial lockdown bought time to reconfigure. Which is now done. So we've bypassed that benefit...

I have three friends who go back decades with me - and we have disagreed about all sorts of things over the years, some were very serious differences, but none of them have been worth giving up our long-lasting friendship for. I know I have feet of clay, so I can't really complain if they do to.

Carry on being a friend if you can, but in the knowledge that you know this woman a little better now than you did before.

Also, flattening the curve results in less morbidity and death-

It's much too soon to say what is going on in Sweden. They have what? 1 6th our population in nearly twice the space? We can't even judge deaths per million until their numbers show a steady decline. In fact I don't think it will ever be truly comparable at all with anyone as different cultures, populations, space and well, too many factors. Thank goodness they are protecting the most vulnerable though.

If we really care about each other, we should refrain from opening up the country again too quickly.

And do we care that domestic violence murders have more than doubled because of lockdown?
That cancers are going undiagnosed because of lockdown?

ALANaV You say Sweden's different lockdown policy is better but I quote: 'Sweden has higher death rates in relation to its population size than anywhere else in Scandinavia', so your assertion is incorrect.

When you look at population density not size, sweeden is doing similarly to other EU countries with similar densities despite the others being in lockdown.

It is our pockets of density that push up our numbers.

Multitudes of Americans weren't thriving prior to the emergence of the virus- However, they may weather lockdown much better than those who flourished prior to the emergence of the virus-

They may prove to be better equipped mentally to deal with prohibitive limits, social distance, staying at home, not doing what they want to do and in many cases being alone-

This virus is novel, there is no evidence of immunity to prevent a second infection- It has spread to every hemisphere, thrived in every climate, in humans and animals alike- It can survive, for a limited time, on a variety of surfaces and it's believed that it can travel on particulate matter, the type of matter not being so massively produced due to closures-

It needs a host- And the only way not to provide it with a host is social distancing-

First walk with my daughter,who lives with us,was this evening.
DH is in the shielding group so have been at home with him,fearful of passing the virus to him.
We went at 10pm,walked for just under an hour around the local area.
We were the only people in the whole of the walk,did see a few cars but not many.
No-one wants to be in lockdown,but it is for the health of us all.
Sadly there has been a death of someone we are friendly with.
Two nurses,family members,both have covid 19.
Don't be selfish.
Ps a neighbour said it doesn't matter,if it's my time to go.
The ambulance took her to hospital a few days later.(home now)

ExD Being kind, it is possible that your friend was having a panic attack, although I doubt it.

You could think about contacting her once more to ascertain her views but if they remain the same you have probably lost a 'friend'!

PamGeo You commented that the friend in question could be 'in the Gaza strip being bombed daily'. Without wanting to highjack the thread, this is an odd statement as it is in the Gaza strip that bombs are daily sent elsewhere...

ALANaV You say Sweden's different lockdown policy is better but I quote: 'Sweden has higher death rates in relation to its population size than anywhere else in Scandinavia', so your assertion is incorrect.

I agree with the poster who is angry that ports and airports were not shut here. There was the scenario that tourists were pouring into London, infecting thousands and no action was taken to stop then

Entry to the UK is still possible. Try and travel through France or Spain. Governments there have taken a more strident view of travellers.

We (the UK) were not as prepared as we should have been; we did not act decisively enough when cases soared; we sacrificed doctors, nurses, care assistants and bus drivers for the want of PPE which is nothing short of disgraceful.

If we really care about each other, we should refrain from opening up the country again too quickly. We could easily have another wave/peak of infection. Would a week or two more really be impossible for people to deal with?

I know of four deaths from Covid-19, plus six others I didn't personally know. That is a lot of death.....

People who stay home have a conscience and a decency to think beyond their own selfish wants.

The OPs household arent staying home!
So telling other households they have to isnt going to go down well.

That is so staggeringly a 1st World attitude. If that was genuinely her belief then sometimes there are friends who need losing in life. Too many people have lost friends in the worst way, to this indescriminate virus. It's a horrible disease, and highly contagious. Yes you can have it and not know, and then spread the infection to someone who will not recover. People who stay home have a conscience and a decency to think beyond their own selfish wants.
You did absolutely the right thing. Thank you.

I may be wrong but I think if you go for a drive and don't get out of your car you are at less risk of getting or passing the virus than if you go for a walk or a bike ride.

The problem is the government is treating EVERYONE like children and we have lived long and productive lives and we UNDERSTAND what is necessary and what is not totally necessary and locking all over 70's up indefinitely is NOT acceptable and contravenes many laws in fact ……..someone posted earlier, either her or on FB some diatribe about 'BILLY' whoever....stating that we should all stay in to save Billy so he doesn't get COVID 19 ...how ridiculous ...'BILLY' may already have it, have had it, be a carrier ….BILLY may be an essential worker , a transport driver, an NHS worker, a postman …...who is NOT able to isolate himself ….until maybe it is too late ! or he may be an unknown carrier of the virus....and to bundle everybody into the same category makes no sense whatever. There are NO MORE deaths in Sweden pro rata to population, and they have not implemented such totally unacceptable lockdown on their citizens...trusting they are adults who can conduct themselves appropriately. Without testing no one knows who is a carrier or who had had it or who will get it ...let us live a life since we will ALL one day be dead …

Yogadatti

People are now dying because of lockdown. Domestic violence murders have doubled. Cancer screenings cancelled. Etc.

The reason for it has passed. Time was bought. Now its just doing harm.

Do people who say "people who disobay lockdown will make CV last longer" not understand what a flattened curve is?

A flattened curve isnt less cases
Its the same amount. Spead out over a longer time, rather than peaking and being over sooner.

Lockdown was never about less cases. It was always about flattening the curve to allow time for the NHS and other services to reconfigure.

It wont "last longer" because someone went on a visit.
Thats not how it works. Thats not what lockdown was ever about!

And now that services have been reconfigured, the benefits of lockdown no longer outweigh the risks.

Hopefully it'll be lifted in the next week or two before lockdown does too much more irreversible damage.

Well said BluePizzaWalking.....no one knows how hard it is mentally for someone else. I live with a husband I don’t get on with ....and now am trapped.....physically ill...mentally full of anxiety and fear....no real help....I have no intention of going out because the virus would probably kill me.....but boy do I resent this government who acted so slowly and ineffectually .....if they had locked down and closed borders immediately, it would have all been a different story. We are an island, the only way the virus entered was by people entering the country and not being quarantined from day one.
“ The science”.....what science? Try common-sense instead!

It will get to a point where people will say whats the point in being alive if we can't thrive.

Notanan is right. Many feel like this.
As Sassl says too, not everyone can cope well. It's not logical and I wouldn't do anything dangerous to put anyone at risk but I feel I am just existing now. I am finding it all very hard and have to force myself to keep going. I'm sure many feel the same.

I've come to realise,that sometimes in life we find that someone we respected as a friend or even family member acts in such a way that you did not believe possible. It is hard to maintain respect and regard as you accept what occurred.
You tried to reason with your friend and she responded badly and may regret that given enough time. How you treat her going forward is something you will think and worry over. Just be yourself and she may apologise. If not then it is time to forgive so that it doesn't 'eat you up'. Your relationship will change somewhat in that things won't be the same between you. But at least you can feel you did and said the right thing. Some friendships don't last forever.

yes, i think we will all have to change our habits for the foreseeable.
people used to laugh at me as i always opened doors in hospitals with a paper towel in my hand, and would never use my naked finger to press left buttons etc.
this i how we were brought up. i thank god for my parents' ways every day. some people would mock and say germs are everywhere, you can't avoid them. that doesn't mean i can't avoid some of them, and the very fact that i can't avoid all of them gives me greater impetus to try to avoid as many as i can. let us all do what we can.

I think you should wait and see if she calls you back and gives you some sort of apology, I would be quite upset if a friend did this , but suppose I`m lucky that I know my friends feel the same as me.
We`ve been in lockdown for 6 weeks due to age (74 &75) and I also health issues warranting a letter from both the NHS and my surgery declaring I have to stay safe at home for 12 weeks .We have priority shopping and having never done that before it`s quite enjoyable . Mr Nick won`t go out to any shops in case he brings the virus home so we rely on youngest daughter who lives nearby to pop the daily paper through the letter box and give us a wave through the front door. The newspaper gets a bleach spray on it and left for a couple of hours before it gets looked at !
My point after all this saga of a reply is that we would rather stay safe in isolation for however long it takes than risk a painful death because we got fed up being home .
Anyone else having to do the 12 week isolation ??

I think you were absolutely right in what you said. You may have lost a friend but she may just be having a really bad day and will apologise for her behaviour. By all accounts she also may have caused a difficult rift with her dil.

I agree with BlueBell. None of us really know what it's like to live another person's life. None of us can really know how hard this lock down is for other people. Everyone is worried by different things, different parts of the restrictions affect us differently. I can see why we need a lock down for a short time to suppress the virus. But more should have been done earlier to stop it taking a hold in the first place. Loads more should have been done for years to give us a more robust NHS and public health system in our country. The science surrounding it is not clear cut there are different ways and opinions on how it can be handled.
I strongly believe its quality of life not quantity that matters. I do not want to live for twelve months in lock down and then die not having seen my mother for a year nor given my grandson a cuddle. I would much prefer to have had those times with them and been able to go out for a drive on the countryside and die sooner. However equally I don't want to be responsible for passing the virus on to anyone else so I will respect and follow the regulations around the lock down. But it is getting harder and harder for me. I know I have a nice comfortable house to be locked down in but that doesn't stop the increasing mental anguish I am facing through being cut off from my family, and forced to only go out once a day.

We need to all do what we feel is right and try to respect other people decisions.

I think you were right to share your opinions with your friend but I think you just have to accept she has a different perspective on life to you. I hope you will be able to remain friends.