This won't work

Fascinating isn't it that the idea that employees are lazy idiots who have no concept of economics and don't want to work, and employers are overworked philanthropists still persists into the 21st century. Most employees realise that their jobs depend upon the economic success of the business they work for and at present are trying to balance that against the risks of them returning to work and how that impacts upon their family. I hope most employers realise as well that there may be other reasons including family members with ill health which impact on employees and discuss things properly rather than just condemning.
I just wish these 19th century values could be abandoned.

I used to believe that newspapers reported facts but then I’ve been involved in several incidents that were reported in the press and was astounded to read reports that had got virtually everything wrong, even the simplest of things were totally wrong. They covered themselves by reporting what other people said or used the phrases like ‘sources state that’. Even people who were interviewed and named in the reports got everything wrong, either deliberately or by accident. After these instances I try to be very careful what I believe, tabloid style newspapers are the worst but no newspaper is without biased or factually incorrect reporting at times. They all have an agenda and will be pushing the view of their editors or owners.
I now stick to the ONS for figures as they are independent of government and Reuter’s for news as they do not include opinion, they merely report but I do still take their articles with a healthy dose of cynicism.

Let's hope that the press (and Boris) don't get castigated for saying the 'fat' word or that 1/3 of Britons are obese, a fact I was roundly told off for saying last year.

...and to say it's snobbish...well, that's laughable. What has class got to do with smoking? Don't so called 'snobs' smoke?
The word 'snob' is so passé nowadays.
Enjoy your weekend. ?

Eloethan
It's not a crime to report facts.

In regard to employers who are requesting employees furloughed at present to return to work and also employees being requested as such the procedure should be joint between both parties.

The employer must comply with all that is laid down under the Health & Safety At Work Act 1974 (HASAWA) especially at present in regard to Covid-19. The above act states that an employer must carry out "ALL THAT IS REASONABLY AND PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE" to provide a safe working environment for employees throughout all their working duties.

What constitutes an employer carrying out "all that is reasonably practical" has been the subject of very many disputes and court hearings since 1974 when HASAWA came into force. However, risk assessment is at the core of workplace safety under the foregoing act and that is especially prevalent in regard to Covid-19.

Therefore employers should add an assessment for Covid-19 to the existing risk assessments and risk reduction measures that should be in place for all other regular operations that are carried out by employees in any workplace. Those Covid-19 infection prevention measures should then be sent out to all employees being recalled to work duties following being furloughed.

Employers should then under their duty of care ensure that the infection reduction measures are complied with by all employees, while employees have an equal responsibility to comply with the safety measures under employees duty of care within HASAWA.

However, should it be that any or all of the employees in any workplace feel that an employer has not carried out "all that is reasonably practical" to best maintain their safety, they have legal right to resort to action under Section 44 Employment Rights Act 1996.

The basics of that employment rights act I placed in a post I made on this thread @21:12 on the 14/05/20.

Hope the above helps anyone caught up in the problems of businesses safely reopening in the present crisis.

I am making it difficult for my employer. I’m refusing to return to work because it isn’t safe for me to do so.

I am however working more hours from home than I would be at work. 8am - 9.30pm today.

I’m not putting my life on the line for a job. Some people on here criticising ‘lazy’ workers are isolating yet expect others to take a risk they won’t.

Actually, according to Personnel Today and other press reports, HMRC have apparently to date received 795 reports of fraudulent behaviour by employers who are claiming their staff have been furoughed but who are allegedly forcing their staff to come in to work.

So let's acknowledge that there are always people who take liberties but they are not always the supposedly greedy, workshy employees. In fact, most employees are probably scared stiff that they won't have a job to go back to - and I expect they are well aware that if they contribute, through their unwillingness to work, to their workplace being closed for any length of time they probably won't have a job to go back to.

It appears that some employers have a very jaundiced view of their employees - it must be disheartening and demotivating to work for people who habitually view those who work for them in such a negative light.

As for accountants, they are not always the salt of the earth either - and I doubt they are at great risk of a Covid-related death.

Gabriella Your comments re bus drivers smoking is, in my opinion, distasteful. If you said the same thing about doctors and nurses (who, despite all their knowledge of health risks are fairly significantly represented in the numbers of people smoking) it would be deemed out of order. I think your remark is insensitive and snobbish.

It was, in any event, recently reported that the workers at highest risk are taxi drivers, chauffeurs (who, as with bus drivers, work in an enclosed space and who are often in contact with many people throughout their working day) and security guards - security guards being 45.7% more likely than the average employee to die from contracting the virus. The underlying theme is that low paid workers who cannot work from home are at significantly higher risk, as the death statistics demonstrate.

I’m not so sure . I’ve only got 3 employees these days . 2 on 80% and 1 on 80% plus the additional 20% that I am making up (he will leave otherwise) . My husband and I are getting nothing at all even though I am working longer hours than I ever did sorting all this crap out. I have tried to talk to them about a staged return but none are happy or willing to go out onsite. I have managed to get a supply of extra PPE (masks, gloves, hand gel etc) but they are still reluctant . I suspect there is a ring leader who is more than happy for this to last as long as possible .

gillybob, the vast majority of those furloughed at present realise that situation cannot continue indefinitely. Therefore almost all wish to return to their employment as soon as possible, for the alternative is loss of employment followed by a life on benefits which will in all probability be much lower than what they receive in their employment.

It is only the right-wing press and a few on this forum who perceive things as anything different to the above.

There are also those enjoying 100% of their wages for doing nothing at all. Why on earth would they want it to change ?

Sadly I think you’re right GabriellaG . I was talking to my accountant this afternoon and he said pretty much the same . Imagine you are getting 80% of your wages delivered to you every week . Pension contribution paid. No travel costs. No getting up at 6 am .lazing in the garden enjoying the sun and a beer at 12 noon with your lunch . The alternative is getting 20% more but having to work 40 hrs and travel for another 10 . What would you choose?

GabriellaG54 @21:19 today, Quote[ I don't read certain posts. Too auto-cue/scripted/robotic. Even with eyes wide shut it's predictable] End Quote.

GabriellaG54 @22:07 today, Quote[ If I post on a thread it is after reading all posts before mine and returning to answer or add to the conversation'.] End Quote.

Err, a bit of a contradiction there I believe Gabriella.

22:21 post was to Jaycee5

No problem FarNorth no problem at all.
Goodnight. Take care. ?

You talk as if bus drivers are the most likely persons to be infected.
One would have to be stupid not to agree that 1 death is 1 too many, however. I will search online to see how many drivers in each main town and City have died due to Covid-19.

I'm not aware that asking with a 'please' constitutes a demanding accusation.

You have your views and I have mine and I respect the fact that those views can be aired on here but please, don't exaggerate my tone.
I asked a question.
The majority of GNers ask questions, the answers to which can be found any day of the week on Google.

I believe that we are all learning in this unprecedented crisis, be that the government, employers, employees and especially those at the forefront of the Health Service.

The British Government is at present paying eighty percent of the wages and salaries of all those who otherwise would face the loss of their employment due to coronavirus.

The above action by government undoubtedly is not perfect and will have consequences in regard to the national debt far into the future. However, that alleviating effort many would consider preferable to the coronavirus situation in the United States were today a quarter of the entire workforce stand unemployed.

Coronavirus will be a learning curve for all long into the future. There will be good weeks along with weeks and days when the news will be extremely poor, but from what I have seen in my work over the past weeks and days, we as a nation will come through this unprecedented period.

In the above, all of Britains working population are aware they have to come through this crisis for there is no other alternative and that fact is bringing about great amounts of cooperation between employees and employers in very many workplaces.

if employers have not and do not instigate distancing and sanitising measures (although not mentioned in the article) it would seem that employees should have the right not to return.

So what's the problem GG54, especially as you say you understand that the employers are in control of who gets furlough pay?

Grandad1943
If I post on a thread it is after reading all posts before mine and returning to answer or add to the 'conversation'.

I mentioned no names so I wonder why you thought it was you to whom I referred.

Simply being the post following yours does not signify anything, so please do not make assumptions.

Gabriella54 You can google information rather than demand it accusingly.
In mid April it was 21 in London alone. Now that figure is over 40. I don't know about the rest of the country.
I second what Grandad1943 says. Your harsh and dogmatic attitude is not conducive to friendly discussion.
Every unnecessary death is a tragedy.

Numbers please, re the bus drivers who have died, the main cause being Coronavirus.
Stagecoach have a protective screen around the driver and the first seats facing inward towards the aisle behind the driver's cabin, are clearly marked as Not In Use.
Every other seat has a plastic banner disallowing use.
Rows 1 3 5 7 9 on one side and 2 4 6 8 10 on the other so no individual is sitting next to, in front of or behind anyone else.
Buses are steam cleaned and sanitised every night.
BTW, the vast majority in this South Surrey area are empty on every journey to the point that bus schedules are halved.
Hourly instead of 2 hourly and so on.
There is more chance of them dying of
a smoking related disease as the vast majority now have the time between stops to have a smoke and yes, most are smokers.

GabriellaG54, in regard to your post @21:19 today, you demonstrate that only your own extreme views on any subject matter to you, and that you do not wish to even read the opinions of others.

What an attitude, someone who knows all and therefore is incapable of learning anything else.

So an interview by a one business owner by a far right newspaper means that the British worker is too lazy to go back to work because they would rather live off the state.
It is reasonable to be worried about going back too earlier.
How many more bus drivers are going to die because of this policy?
This also ignores the fact that children are not back at school yet and many grandparents are concerned about having to go back to child care too early and other child care arrangements aren't in place.

I don't read certain posts. Too auto-cue/scripted/robotic. Even with eyes wide shut it's predictable. ?

In regard to the above posts, Although many have probably never heard of it, Section 44 Employment Rights Act 1996 could be considered the cornerstone of the UK’s Health & Safety at Work legislation.

Section 44. provides employees with the means to contest the adequacy and/or suitability of safety arrangements without fear of recriminations (e.g. getting sacked or transferred) or suffering detriment (e.g. loss of wages).

That section also provides employees with the ‘right’ to withdraw from and to refuse to return to a workplace that is unsafe. Employees are entitled to remain away from the workplace (e.g. stay at home) if in their opinion the prevailing circumstances represent a real risk of serious and imminent danger which they could not be expected to avert.

Section 44. entitles employees to claim for ‘Constructive Dismissal’ and (unlimited) compensation in the event that an employer fails to maintain safe working conditions. The foregoing means employees don’t have to wait until they (or someone else) suffer injury or illness before they can take action to get suitably safe working conditions.

Section 44. leaves employees with no excuse whatsoever for tolerating unsafe working conditions and acts as a deterrent against an employer either deliberately or carelessly devoting inadequate resources to the protection of safety in their workplace.

Hope the above helps in this debate, I at the minute cannot add more as I have only just finished work in the same field as quoted and I am now desperate for my evening meal. ?

Please excuse any text errors in the above as I did rush the post, so I hope it makes sense.