jk rowling and the 3 dementors

So there is to be no adjusting anyone's thinking? I would hope everyone was able to learn more and to adjust, if not necessarily completely change their views.
Any attacks by anyone on another person whatever their sexuality, gender or body form is wrong.
But while some women are focussing their fight for equality on the aggression and arguments found on twitter others are really trying to stop the backlash and change policies. The establishment, men in power like Trump and other leaders are the people we should be opposing. There may be a few transwomen who are a danger to women but most aren't . I've written about how to tackle on-line abuse,it's up to the individual what they do. But demonstrating and writing about the real restrictions women and LGBT people still face and maintaining that fight is more important.. www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/11/from-slurs-to-sexual-violence-women-human-rights-defenders-come-under-global-attack/

PamelaJ1, that does seem the sensible option.

It's the homophobia implicit in this that most infuriates me. That's why I wont reprogramme my thinking. I have fought my whole life against homophobia I am not going to start saying that same sex attraction doesnt exist. Not for anyone.

I’m happy to change my mind about things, and often have over the years. I won’t change my mind just for the sake of it, though. I need to see a convincing argument first, and that hasn’t happened yet.

So am I the only person here who thinks that what is really happening is that because people are being divided into separate groups and blaming other groups for violence and oppression rather than looking for compromise and acceptance there is a real growth of extremism in all sections of society, which threatens most of all minority groups. That this is primarily right wing violence and it is much worse than any tweets or statements on social media which may of course fuel it. That it will not be found in toilets or in changing rooms but on the streets and public transport like the lesbians attacked on a bus in London www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49119947
And please can someone explain to me how keeping trans women out of toilets and changing rooms will stop this.
One of my sons said to me the other day that we are about to see a reprise of the 1980s with the violence then practiced by right wing extremists. It's something I really fear and it will not be just women who will be targeted.

Those right wing extremists on the streets are all men trisher. Women are not responsible for them. In fact they are a prime example of male violence. Nobody is telling me what to think. No right wing conspiracy. Women are able to see what is happening for themselves. I have explained that letting women establish their own boundaries and not letting boundaries be decided by men is a tiny step towards reducing violence against women. Can you explain how not allowing women to give consent is going to reduce violence against women.

Allowing women to say this is my body and when I am naked,I want privacy and dignity, and respecting those rights might actually encourage some men to see women as human beings.

I agree galaxy. Violence is almost, but not exclusively the province of young men, and on both extremes of the political divide. Why? Is it alcohol? Social media?Video games? Social upbringing? Or all of those things.

It is all of those things of course petunia and we can tinker about with things, argue about if a transwoman is a real woman or not, if it's OK to say people who menstruate instead of women, who is allowed in which space and any number of other things or we can look at things and say there needs to be a change here and we need to alter our approach to everything We need to accept others and not fight with them and it doesn't matter how you choose to identify yourself if you stand for inclusivity and tolerance then we stand together.
Of course it is young men being violent and usually it is young men who are the targets of that violence. Young men are also more likely to committ suicide than women and more likely to be murdered
As in previous years, the majority of homicide victims in the year ending March 2018 were male (69%, 499 victims) and 31% were female (227 victims).
The number of male victims has increased at a faster rate than females in recent years. The figure of 499 male victims of homicide was an increase of 54% from 324 in the year ending March 2015. In contrast, the number of female homicide victims had remained broadly flat until increasing by 49 homicides (28%, excluding Hillsborough victims) in the year ending March 2018
I just wish we could find some way of utilising all the energy that is being expended arguing about imagined threats into a force that would work to help with the problem.

Get the approach sorted trisher, get the violence stopped, then we can think about sharing spaces.

Have you tried telling trans people and their allies, and maybe even men, to focus their energies on sorting this out?

When you've all done that, you can let us know.

And most of those female homicide victims will have been murdered by men.

While the idea of a gender fluid inclusive tolerant community has some merit, it is not based on our reality. We still need some boundaries. Boundaries and definitions are there for a reason-otherwise your neighbour may build an extension to his house on your driveway, just because he doesn't recognise your boundaries.

Definitions are there for a reason too.
If you cant define define something, be it a woman, you cant define what is not a woman. we as people are roughly half male and half female.

Gender is not real, biological sex is. Biology is visible, measurable, repeatable. Gender is whatever the person desires. I believe a study at the BBC some time ago found that there were over 70 different genders working there. To rely on that to plan public services, health services, benefit services etc. is the path to madness. Each group has different needs. Its no good inviting a woman for a prostate examination or a man for a smear.

And that will stop SueDonim when you have made trans women confrom to your views will it?
FarNorth so what do you suggest will stop the violence? I'm willing to listen.

I don’t understand your question, Trisher.

trisher I have no idea what will stop the violence.
That's why I'm not in favour of letting Tom, Dick and Harry identify themselves into females' single-sex spaces.

If you have no plan for stopping the violence, other than throwing females to the dogs, you need to start having a good think.

Feminists used to hope that gender-neutral upbringings for children would help with that, but of course the majority of parents don't do it.

Now schools' policies are supposedly gender-neutral, meaning children shouldn't be treated in a stereotyped way based on their sex, yet they are encouraged to believe they may be in the wrong body if they don't fit sex stereotypes.

I think you will find ( are finding) that you are a lone voice on this subject here on GN trisher ......after reading all the posts that don’t agree with yours, are you able to understand why and perhaps ‘adjust your thinking’ accordingly? You seem to be asking everyone to think again ( come around to your viewpoint.) It won’t happen.

And it's dreadful for the teenage girls in the school gender neutral toilets. If they are in a cubicle for more than a couple of minutes, there are teenage boys shouting "She's on her period" and the girl has to emerge to face that.

Teenage girls are embarrassed and sensitive enough about periods when they first start them as it is. Girls and women everywhere should have their own female-only spaces.

I dont want transwomen to conform to my thinking trisher, and transwomen dont all believe the gender nonsense anyway. I want womens rights that are enshrined in law to be preserved. I couldn't give a monkey how people present or dress or what name they call themselves. I dont want to be made to believe something though. I would fight for people to hold religious beliefs for example but I would be quite perturbed if they said I had to believe them too.
I am really pleased for example that transwomen have just received protection against discrimination within employment. I wish though that women were protected from employment discrimination for saying sex is real.
I dont want trisher to adjust her thinking lemongrove. It's fine for people to have different views. If people acknowledged that maybe we would all be less tribal and entrenched and I dont mean just in this debate.

lemongrove, there have been others agreeing with trisher on previous threads about this, and one or two of them earlier in this thread.
I expect they just don't have the tenacity that trisher does.
It's interesting to me to have someone willing to share their views on this and to debate, and I appreciate trisher doing so.

lemongrove if you mean am I trying to understand and reconcile the posts I read on this thread well of course I am. But if you are asking me to enter into swapping hate-mail with people because they are different to me, or to condemn all transwomen because there are some who post unacceptable things on social media then I can't do that. No one has explained to me how giving women a space to change their clothes in will stop them being attacked on buses or in the street, nor for that matter how it will stop domestic violence. The idea seems to be that if trans women are stopped from using women's spaces men will somehow have more respect for women and I really don't understand that. So until I do understand I don't see how I can change my views. But I am still willing to listen to an explanation.
SueDonim you posted that homicide victims were women murdered by men and I asked if that would stop when transwomen conformed to your views.
I may be a lone voice on here but out in the real world 4th generation feminists are standing solid with minority groups and advocating acceptance of differences.

trisher, I don't want to perpetuate some kind of polarised discussion but here I go. Out there in the real world, good young women I know who were brave enough to attempt to broaden the discussion about feminism, women's rights and trans have been subjected to horrific threats of violence and rape, by members of the trans community. I don't find threats of violence of that kind area constructive way of attempting to broaden a discussion.

No one has explained to me how giving women a space to change their clothes in will stop them being attacked on buses or in the street, nor for that matter how it will stop domestic violence.

but it doesn't matter whether it does or doesn't stop women being attacked at home if it will help young girls and women to be protected from being uncomfortable in public places like toilets and changing rooms.

Young teen girls go through so much with being teased by boys of their age, who are often emotionally less mature. I can still remember the awful fuss when my breasts grew and I had to wear a bra......boys would ping the back strap and call out all kinds of embarrassing comments. It is minor and also not minor. It makes you feel vulnerable and bullies can pick up on this and exploit it.

We need to feel safe in as many places as possible.

Domestic Violence is a complex issue and is also often cultural. You can't solve it by keeping female only spaces but that doesn't take away any importance of female only spaces.

TW are safer with female only spaces surely? taking them away just opens up more places for men to intimiate and attack.

I cannot follow the logic of gender neutral spaces, which save nothing and no-one.

Trisher I have said a number of times how letting women set their boundaries will help. Teaching men that when women say no the law will support them. Teaching men that if you call women terf and threaten them with rape you wont be hailed for being progressive.
Also I think it was a good thing for example that children with disabilities were included in mainstream education - do I think its stopped discrimination and some awful things happening to children and adults with disabilities- no. Sometimes doing something is just right it doesnt also have to solve all structural inequalities.

I still don’t see the point of your Q, Trisher. Unless you’re saying that trans-women will still commit murder at the same rate as men, which appears to be the case so far.

The point of female safe spaces is for women to have somewhere to seek sanctuary. It’s cloud-cuckoo land to think that men will stop raping, murdering and abusing women if only we were nice to them.

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never sent hate mail and nor am I right-wing, but neither of those things has resulted in a world of peace ‘n love, sadly.