jk rowling and the 3 dementors

Galaxy where have I said woman is hate speech please? Those who wish to use the term and identify as women are entitled to do so.
Using those terms implies they are in some way separate, are they not all people? What is wrong with that word? But I do believe that you realise that JKR was wrong to just use the word woman.
Nor have I said hate speech is acceptable I said that by engaging in it we engage in agression and confrontation which is possibly the originator's aim., and I gave ways of not doing this.
How will imposing sex segregation help stop violence in the home? Providing young people with alternative methods of resolving conflict might help do that. Encouraging them to see everyone as having rights and respecting those rights might help.
The best way to help men to reduce violence and to protect women is to teach other ways of living.
Of course the less privileged are the people who suffer because of violence. But most of the women who are now shouting loudly about women only changing rooms and loos are not those women. They are right wing and as entrenched as some men. They sometimes have very conflicting unacceptable views. Germaine Greer for example who opposed the appointment of a transwoman at Newnham College but then said about he Harvey Weinstein women But if you spread your legs because he said 'be nice to me and I'll give you a job in a movie' then I'm afraid that's tantamount to consent, and it's too late now to start whingeing about that. which seems to me to be just about as divisive as you can get. And that is the object to divide society so that one group can have privilege and others can't.

As I said JKR, navratilova, Simon fanshawe, none of these are right wing, but that doesnt suit the narrative does it. What hate speech are you referring to then? There was no hate speech in JKR s remarks. Why are transwomen allowed to use the words they want and women are not, why do you treat them differently. You ignore all the tricky issues. Encouraging everyone to respect peoples rights, but only some peopes rights, the right for sex segregated spaces is enshrined in law.
You would need to show me the hate speech that JKR used as I dont know which hate speech you are referring to. Is there also a problem with the word female in fgm because they are harassing women about that too. What word should we use there?

Well said Galaxy
If some people try and make this out to be a political right or left wing debate then they are sadly mistaken.
Women have fought long and hard for their rights ( in every way) and we cannot stand back and allow trans rights to eclipse that.

So agree about people saying that the words female genital mutilation should not be used, that is a description of what has happened to these women, what is wrong with these words?

And actually believe it or not I think right wing women are deserving of rights too, as shocking as that might be.

Also the word woman is being used left right and centre in the thread about abortions. So I just want to clarify it is wrong for JKR to use the word women with regard to people who menstruate but it is ok to use the word women with regard to those who have abortions. It's not very coherent is it.

Trisher can I just say I absolutely appreciate that you continue to discuss this, I hope that doesnt sound arsey. I think it's clear we disagree with each other and will probably never agree, but often people declare no debate so I appreciate it.

Galaxy Thank you for that. I do think it is a learning process particularly for those of us who fought for equality and assumed when women were equal violence and abuse would stop. I was raised to be confrontational and argue so the whole idea of meeting anger with understanding was difficult. I do think there are a number of feminists active now who do believe in inclusivity and understanding but at the same time are scathing about abuse and violence. I think they are the hope for the future.

I think the hope for the future is our teachers, but I may be getting confused with another thread

I have difficulty with the suggestion that women who express concern about the potential loss of hard fought for women only spaces, are right wing, white, privileged women. The same accusation could so easily be made about the suffragettes and more recently the women's liberation movement in the 1970's and 1980's.
I know two young women who have been villified, bullied and harassed by trans activists, because they expressed concerns at a women's conference. It feels to me like the same old - men attempting to tell women how to live their lives, men trying to claim any space women have managed to keep safe for themselves.

That's exactly what it is Iam64.

Iam64 if you can quote me a left wing black woman who has made such statements I would be really interested to read what she said.
Many of the suffragettes became involved in the peace movement after WW1 and took up non violence and pacifism. They never advocated seperate women only spaces. I agree women in the 70s and 80s were militants and regarded men as the enemy. We thought that women would be safe from violence if we gave them safe spaces. And yet after 50 years of access to those spaces the violence remains and has become worse. It now targets anyone who is seen as different. I just don't understand how tinkering and fighting for those places will stop violence in society. You can't keep all women permanantly in a safe place. I suppose we could just let things go on and the violence escalate but I would like to think there is another way.

I think there’s a few twitter users on both/all sides of this debate who could take a leaf out of @trisher and @Galaxy ‘s book, actually all the posters on this thread, on how to conduct themselves whilst debating this issue.

No threats of violence or name calling in sight. It’s a shame that people detract from the core issues with their shocking behaviour.

Jkr and Martina navratilova are not right wing. Caitlin Jenner on the other hand is or was a trump supporter.. I am.not sure what point this proves. Oh and India Willoughby thinks that hairy legs on a woman are dirty but fine for men. Is that a conservative attitude, probably. Paris Lees thinks it's a good think when women are catcalled in the street that sounds a bit conservative too. Can I dismiss their views that transwomen are women because they are fairly conservative in their outlook.

Actually it's unfair to call the cat calling one conservative, regressive maybe.

Martina Navratilova has adjusted her views after investigation. I think she perfectly illustrates what can happen
In June 2019, the BBC broadcast "The Trans Women Athlete Dispute with Martina Navratilova", where she interviewed people including trans women athletes and sports researchers, presenting evidence on both sides of the debate of whether trans women have any advantage in elite sports. Her closing remarks were "The way I started this journey, I just wanted to see if there are any big surprises, any misconceptions that I had. And what I think I have come to realise, the biggest thing for me, is just that the level of difficulty that trans people go through cannot be underestimated. The fight for equality and recognition is just huge. That being said, still, for me, the most important thing in sports... and you have to remember, trans rights and elite sports are two different things, although of course they are connected. What's the right way to set rules so that everybody feels like they have a fighting chance? It feels to me that it is impossible to come to any real conclusions or write any meaningful rules until more research is done.

But for now, I think we need to include as many transgender athletes as possible within elite sports, while keeping it as level a playing field as possible. Look, society has changed so much. Things evolve, things change and maybe I need to evolve, I need to change. The rules certainly need to evolve. If you don't adapt, you've got problems. And so we'll just keep adapting and try to find a happy way forward

Ha no sorry to disappoint she hasn't adjusted her thinking (sinister phrase) she is tweeting vigorously in defence of GK Rowling and the realities of biological sex. She just understands there is a clash of rights.

Oh I think might win the prize. Hibo Wardere , also tweeting about the importance of the word woman and the massive importance of the reality of biological sex.

If trans women are attracted to men, which I assume to be the case, what danger would they be to women in a so called ‘safe’ space
hollysteers, in fact many transwomen call themselves lesbians and insist that it is transphobic for actual lesbians not to want sexual relationships with them.
These are not men who respect women's boundaries.
These are men who are determined to push for what they want, regardless of anyone else.

Thanks babyshark I appreciated that comment.

Martina Navratilova ‘Adjusted her views after investigation’? It sounds like she’s been sent for reprogramming!

I actually read that quote as her saying she acknowledges the debate but still thinks the same as she did before.

The attacks on lesbian women by trans women with penis, who accuse the lesbian women of transphobia, are simply outrageous.
It's the same old same old bullying of women, expectation that women will accommodate, 'understand', mediate and put their own needs to the bottom of the pile.
Adjust our thinking - I wonder why that expectation is directed at those who attack women.

Here is an article by Miranda Yardley, who is a transwoman and is opposed to the idea that transwomen are exactly the same as women.

The Cotton Ceiling, coined by a male “lesbian” pornographer, refers to the barrier trans women face when denied access to sex with lesbians.

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567823-girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women?fbclid=IwAR3xMzIXWYdHgmtDIaid0tCZQB-SNelvrZ4uBw5-mSfC0ppg2swxvhHBHGs

A couple of quotes from that article by Miranda Yardley :

I am a man who ‘lives as a woman,’ whatever that may mean, and can see exactly how too many transgender rights activists think.

any deviation from the brain-sucking mantra of ‘trans women are women,’ is met with reports to our employers, threats of physical violence, and threats of rape and death. This is a viciously toxic form of men’s sexual rights activism that has managed to rebrand and reframe itself as a civil rights movement.

FarNorth,

Oh my goodness me. I think I’ll go back to bed and hide.