Are you intending to see your family this Christmas come what may, or if there are restrictions will you abide by them ?

The only people we ever see over Christmas anyway are DD and GC. We have been in a support bubble since the first lockdown due to childcare and her having to move out of her park home.

I am not convinced by the SAGE data, wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually got the leading scientists from both sides together for a meaningful debate to which the public could ask questions?

For example, why has Belarus such a low infection rate despite the population having been out on the streets protesting en masse for months?

I would like to see published the excess suicide, dementia, heart attacks, strokes and cancer deaths compared with last year.

I do hope their is some relaxation to restrictions by 24th December and after all Boris has promised that people will be celebrating Christmas. I have heard that perhaps their will be 2 or 3 days when people can see family but then go back to some restrictions. I do not think much of that and if we are still having to have restrictions then why come out of them for a few days that does not make sense to me.
I will continue to wear face covering social distance wash hands and not go into anyones home and follow all safety guidance, I can still have some decorations and a tree and a nice dinner it is only for the day so I would rather be safe what anyone else does is up to them.

B9exchange

I am not convinced by the SAGE data, wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually got the leading scientists from both sides together for a meaningful debate to which the public could ask questions?

For example, why has Belarus such a low infection rate despite the population having been out on the streets protesting en masse for months?

I would like to see published the excess suicide, dementia, heart attacks, strokes and cancer deaths compared with last year.

What would you do even if you saw the figures? Do you suggest abandoning Covid patients to treat the others? The NHS needs extra capacity to cope.

3nanny6

I do hope their is some relaxation to restrictions by 24th December and after all Boris has promised that people will be celebrating Christmas. I have heard that perhaps their will be 2 or 3 days when people can see family but then go back to some restrictions. I do not think much of that and if we are still having to have restrictions then why come out of them for a few days that does not make sense to me.
I will continue to wear face covering social distance wash hands and not go into anyones home and follow all safety guidance, I can still have some decorations and a tree and a nice dinner it is only for the day so I would rather be safe what anyone else does is up to them.

Do you think anybody will remember to tell the virus to have a couple of days off?

I shall DAY AS IM TELT! At Christmas I’ll protect myself, my family and others it won’t be such a hardship considering we can meet in a restaurant up to six at any one time.

maddyone

There’s a lot of information now emerging about ....government scientists who knowingly publish erroneous statistics about COVID in order to frighten us.

This is very worrying, in particular because it’s caused the furlough scheme to be extended until next March, costing another 150 billion. I think it’s time the government looked further than Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty who predicted that we could have 4000 deaths a day if the country didn’t go into a second lockdown. Apparently infections were levelling out already with Tier Three restrictions, but headlong we go, into another lockdown and further trashing of the economy. Our grandchildren will be paying for this for the rest of their lives.

Better than paying for it now with their lives.

Maybe you'd rather people starved than be paid furlough.

Surely this is the point, if the statistics are wrong and they are grossly over-estimating the possible number of future deaths, which we know they are and R is already down to 1 and below. Is the lockdown necessary?

Unless we all lockdown until the last case of COVID in this country is eliminated there must always be at some time a trade off between deaths and economic recovery.

We all make these kinds of decisions on a daily basis without batting an eyelid: crossing the road, driving a car, putting our socks on, being overweight, smoking, drinking.

Growstuff post 15.28

That is exactly what I mean : how can Boris have us all under these restrictions and then "let us all out " for a few days to celebrate Christmas and then put us all under restrictions again. Simply no point.
Perhaps the Christmas fairy will wave her wand at the virus and change it into a pumpkin for a couple of days.
My plans are already in order and this year I will be at home and have dinner and only see son and his wife who I have a bubble with.

MOnica, yes we do make daily assessments of the risk posed to us but we all have a body of knowledge about safe road crossing, safe diving, smoking, over eating, alcohol use. We know much less about this virus as its early days.
In the first lock down, we wiped down shopping, changed and washed clothes if we ventured out. None of that now but I don't go into supermarkets, if everyone followed the guidance I'd feel less worried about shopping. Not everyone does. All it takes is some selfish idiot to sneeze all over the place and the virus is spreading. I've assessed that risk and ruled it out, for me. Sadly, my grandchildren are ruled out as well because they're in school and nursery and their parents working. Their risk is lower than mine so they can live their lives more fully than I can.

Indeed the NHS needs extra capacity in the form of staff, but has spent all summer knowing this and done nothing about it. The Serco Test and Trace isn't up to scratch, yet we have spent billions of pounds on it, and about to throw more at a private company instead of the NHS and local councils managing it.

It is such a shame that so many people take the figures as Gospel and are terrified witless. I suspect that even when all this has subsided, and it will, to be just another illness we live with, that they will still hide away in their homes, continue to wear a mask when they do venture out, refuse to hug their friends or resume their social activities.

To get your risk in proportion, this is the calculator used by researchers to assess the risk of someone with 'pre-existing conditions' needing hospital treatment for Covid. It has used data from over 8 million patients. I think you could be surprised!

qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence?licencedUrl=%2FPatientInformation%2FPatientInformationPlease check for yourselves what your risk actually is.

My family will follow guidelines and play our part in bringing the infection rate back down to a manageable number for the NHS to cope.
If we don’t the reality that could affect any of us - if not Covid - will be patients waiting on long lists for life saving treatments and important operations and procedures.
Hospitals have limited beds, equipment and staff.

Better than paying for it now with their lives
The average age of a person who dies from Covid is 82 and a half. Life expectancy in this country is 81. Puts things into perspective somewhat doesn’t it!

Maybe you’d rather people starved rather than be paid furlough
No, I wouldn’t! But I would prefer that my three year old grandson wouldn’t have to pay for this until his retirement so that older people, who can take steps to protect themselves, can live into their dotage.

Oh that’s okay then maddyone, the over 81s are expendable obviously.
Try looking at how many over 50s, and over 60s are hospitalised, and how many people of all ages have long Covid. The statisticians all have different views, but very few indeed share your rosy view of the death rate if the virus isn’t stringently controlled.
Of course children’s futures are important, I don’t think anybody in their right mind would doubt that, but trying to trade one thing against the other is an amazingly naive view, in fact it’s immoral.

Try looking at our local senior nurse at the Hospice aged 40 who died in the first wave of covid.
I've been breathless since a chest infection in August. My GP now wonders if the negative covid test I had then was inaccurate and I'm experiencing long covid.
Look at the Welsh family who lost three generations to covid aged 40 - 80 recently
Our hospitals in Manchester have today cancelled ops because of the numbers of covid inpatients. Two days ago, our ambulance service issued an emergency notice, they were overwhelmed

MOnica where did you see the R rate 1 or lower please?

You may think it’s immoral Casdon, but what I think is immoral is putting our child last. Thankfully the government have decided to keep schools open this time.

Iam I absolutely agree that the deaths of younger people are horrendous, in particular the several hundred medics who have lost their lives.

M0nica, I can't see the logic in calculating risks according to your local area. People often travel vast distances to see family at Christmas.

I'm sure quite a few will still do so - and bring the virus with them. Therefore it's a time to be ultra careful/cautious, wherever you live.

It was on the radio today. I think it was a discussion on the Today programmen R4. I should have said and if R is down to 1 or just below.

Iam64, we know quite a lot about COVID, we know that its primary method of infection is from aerosol droplets. Which means masks are essential, anywhere where we are in close contact with other people, which includes some outside locations. When queuing for vegetables in the market I always wear a mask, even though it is outside because social distancing is difficult. I also wear gloves.

While some areas do have a real problem with hospital admissions, when the DM looked into the statistics given in last weeks presentation, they found that the graph was truncated to only show hospitals under pressure, the majority of hospitals that had no COVID patients were excluded from the graph.

I am obeying all the COVID regulations and I am reasonably sure the day to day statistics of cases and deaths are correct but when government statistics are shown to have been deliberately incorrect and misleading, it behoves us to look very carefully at every statistic they publish and ask questions because they have shown they cannot be trusted.

Hetty58

M0nica, I can't see the logic in calculating risks according to your local area. People often travel vast distances to see family at Christmas.

I'm sure quite a few will still do so - and bring the virus with them. Therefore it's a time to be ultra careful/cautious, wherever you live.

This was my thinking too Hetty58

All lives are important.
I was moved to see that there is an alternative Albert Hall remembrance festival tonight. We have a duty to remember those who paid the ultimate price so that future generations could flourish. It is all about thinking of others before ourselves and I agree with those GNs who want their children and grandchildren to lead their lives to the full.

I hope I will be able to go home to see my family but given that it includes flying, am going to wait to see how things are nearer the time.

I think we have accepted that this won't happen for us- but we would drive.

At the moment biba driving would probably be safer but you have to think about the quarantine when you arrive here. Maybe it’s not a problem as you’re probably retired, but in any case the rules at the moment don’t allow mixing, but hopefully that will be relaxed by then and you can see your family.

Gaga I sincerely hope you are able to get home and see your little grandson this Christmas, but again, you need to consider the quarantine required before you can see your family.