Eddie Izzard

If you don't support self id, you are subjecting transpeople to unnecessary and often unwanted medical interference

If you don't sell vegan meals you are forcing people to eat meat.
No, there are other places to eat.

If I lived in a town with only one toilet and someone was desperate to use it I would not give a fig what sex or gender they were. That is rarely, if ever, what we are discussing.

trisher

And I'm supposed to be the one who never answers a question!!!!
OK so if a transman has had treatment including surgery but hasn't changed his gender perhaps because of financial difficulties so is still listed as female and he's a nurse is he permitted to work with women who ask for a female carer?

I did answer. My views are not as black and white as yours, so it is not a yes or no answer.

I support self-id when it is not impinging on the rights of a woman to be in a single-sex space when she wishes to be. Otherwise I don't.

Is it at all likely that someone would have surgery before gender transition? I am not familiar with that scenario, so can't answer off the top of my head, however I am broadly in agreement with Chewbacca.

If someone has trained to be a doctor but does not have the relevant qualifications to practice in a particular country is it ethical for them to do so?
Many people suffer financial difficulties and life set-backs, so they wait until they overcome, or ask for help, we don't just change all the rules at the expense of other people's safety.

A trans man, that is, a female that wishes to present as a man, well of course it is ok that they can go into female spaces. Because..
wait for it.. they are biologically women. They often don't pass and look very much like a beta male, smaller, less aggressive.
No one is in danger.

The vegetarian analogy is spot on.

I am troubled by the assumption that 'passing' is a ticket to womanhood.
If everyone really thinks you are female, you can go anywhere biological women go.

I find that deceitful.

And if a vegetarian was offered a delicious meal on the pretence it is meat free. They are being lied to.

If a Muslim was offered a meal prepared with non halal meat or pork, but told it is ok for them to eat.
They are being lied to.

If a man decides he is a woman and gets a job in a womens refuge centre. There are women there who are being lied to.

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

When you start equating basic human rights with food preferences I despair.

What basic human right are you talking about Trisher ?

Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?
Transgender women exhibit male behaviour offending patterns. But their offences are more likely to be of sexual nature.
fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/
Men are more much more likely to offend than women.
People have shared this info with you before.
It's purely about risk.

If you think trans men have penises then I despair. You are giving cosmetic surgeons an awful lot of credit when they take a slice of flesh from the forearm and roll it to produce something that resembles a penis.. on a female.

trisher

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

Based on my experience as a nurse in a hospital where patients presented for various trans surgery - from what I've observed the vast majority of transmen do not attempt to achieve a surgical penis but settle for bilateral mastectomy and use a prosthetic penis with their partner.

There must be very few cases of transmen (formerly women) who commit sexual offences against women.

Whereas people with penises have continued to be a threat, regardless of how they identify.

trisher it is increasingly difficult to discuss these issues as the language has been hijacked - it's like talking in Newspeak.

We are no longer allowed to say 'men' and 'women', but have to use terms such as 'people with penises' and 'biological women' in order not to be picked up on about our vocabulary, which is not only annoying, but when we do so we are accused of being 'bothered' by penises. There is, as you are very well aware, much more to this than that.

Ooh you are all out of date! I was going to cut and paste the relevant procedure but then I thought some on GN might not appreciate the graphic details so here's the link so you can see how things have changed thetranscenter.com/transmen/

If we must have the vegetarian analogy and the biological reasoning then let's put it like this.
You raise your child as a vegetarian, she believes she is a vegetarian but you send her to stay with someone who inspects her tells her she can't be a vegetarian because they believe the biological evidence (her teeth) and these prove she is a carnivore (she has canines) there fore she will have to eat meat. Would you agree with that? Of course you wouldn't.
The reason I reject vegetarianism as anything comparable is because as far as I know no one has ever died for it. Trans-people exist in cultures where they are victimised and beaten, they survive abuse and condemnation, sometimes when it is too much for them they commit suicide. It's nothing like a food preference.

The vegetarian analogy was about deceiving someone into doing something by not telling them that it was not as they thought, and then excusing the deceit by pointing out that they had been at liberty to refuse it.

No more, no less. An ethical issue, not a life or death one, and not a biological one. Ethical, and based around the deceit involved in your saying that people can refuse to be examined by anyone.

Analogies do not have to hold true in every detail - they are made to get across a point of principle, not to make exact cross-disciplinary comparisons.

Others on this thread seem to have understood what I was getting at.

Also, I think I can speak for others when I saw again that we know that transpeople have suffered. Of course we do. We are not suggesting that this is ok, or that they should not be protected in law. All we are saying is that women have a right to safe spaces, and anything that threatens this should be resisted.

I really don't know why you can't see that this is what we are getting at, even if you don't share the view.

I've skimmed through this thread and want to say well said, Iam64 and to Chewbacca too (and everyone else who makes the point) that this is yet another arena where men are again attempting to exert their dominance over women as they have for centuries.

And please, don't try to reassure me that their safety won't be compromised because a DBS check will protect them. It won't. As has been proven over and over again.

The safety and security of little girls is being chucked under a bus simply to accommodate a tiny percentage of men who are insistent that their needs and demands usurp all others.

Well said. DBS checks are not infallible and, more to the point, only show up previous history. They are not cheap and voluntary organisations may not have the resources to apply for them as routine.

Another point - Girl- mode? What is that? I thought there was a thread not long ago disparaging the use of the word girl for grown women.
Eddie Izzard is 58. Girl?
Izzard has described himself as a "straight transvestite" and "a lesbian trapped in a man's body"
He's nearly 60 and still deciding who or what he is; I do feel sorry for him and hope he "finds himself" (as one friend told me he had been doing for years).
However, someone with such a high profile will undoubtedly encourage others whose motives may be more suspect.

Trisha nobody on here is suggesting that transpeople or any people should be victimised and beaten. You do know that women around the world are also victimised, beaten, raped, murdered, mutilated etc. For being women? The fact that these awful things happen to anyone in no way strengthens your case that women should be forced to give up their safe spaces. Nobody dies of being trans. Bad things happen to transpeople. Bad things happen to women. And men. Of course we should try to protect ALL people from harm. What you propose, does not do that.

Nobody who chooses to be a vegetarian has a negative impact on others who choose to eat meat.

Sorry, I cut and pasted my own post while I thought whether or not to post it and the ^ ^ seems to have disappeared which highlighted Chewbacca's words which are the second two paragraphs.

And by the way, humans teeth do not indicate they are carnivores but omnivores. And our gut indicates that our dietary needs are similar to apes, whose diet is close to vegetarian. The biological evidence is that we need little if any meat. I don't suppose you'll bother read to read this trisher any more than you've bothered to read other links provided or answer any of my questions.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320047#Meat:-In-sickness-and-in-health

And finally, if a vegetarian harms their own health by not eating meat (highly unlikely) they are not harming anyone else.

Nobody on here has proposed objecting to anything a transperson does that does not negatively impact on women.

For anyone who is worried about safe spaces for women I present this account, it gives the views of some of the women who work at women's refuges in Scotland. It is moving, amusing and revealing and shows that the people at the coalface are actually coping and dealing with these issues and much of the scary hype being posted is just that, and has no basis in the real work being done.
athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/

When you bother to read and respond to anyone else's links or questions I'll read yours trisher. I could of course share the many links women have posted which would illustrate the reverse. But there's really no point is there?

Hugshelp I didn't say the teeth actually showed anyone was a carnivore I said someone looked at them and said they believed the person was a carnivore. That's the whole point some people look at genitals and insist it means that person is the gender that is physically suggested and that the person must comply with their belief. Whatever the belief you have no right to impose it on others. (especially when it's wrong anyway)

hugshelp there are a lot of people pontificating about what is happening who have little or no experience. I thought it might be reassuring to read the opinions of workers in the field, but if you don't want to know it's up to you.
Have I said I don't read links by the way? I may read them I don't comment on abuse, bile and inaccuracies.

Doodledog I don't know how many times do I have to say it. You are always free to refuse, to withdraw, to say "No" to ask for something else. No one is insisting you do anything.

half the male prisoners who declared themselves transgender were in prison for sexual offences

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. There is a problem with men, men commit most violent and sexual offences. Referring to a few women who are "dominant" in women's refuges adds nothing to a serious discussion about the rights of women and girls being ridden roughshod by men. Like every other poster here, I've no issue with trans -my issue is with the aggressive men who want to dominate women's hard fought for spaces. The issue of trans men who say they're girls (at 60) or say the most difficult thing about being a woman is choosing what to wear is ludicrous and dismisses my experience as a 71 year old woman who lived my entire life female.

trisher and some people think that biology matters too

Whatever the belief you have no right to impose it on others. (especially when it's wrong anyway)