Eddie Izzard

trisher

Doodledog I don't know how many times do I have to say it. You are always free to refuse, to withdraw, to say "No" to ask for something else. No one is insisting you do anything.

Unbelievable!

I have already addressed the inadequacy of this response more than once on this thread, but you just refuse to engage, and it is extremely wearing. You appear to be getting frustrated at the number of times you have repeated yourself, but you are doing so because you have not once engaged with the replies. The impression is that you scan responses for trigger words and then launch into a pre-prepared reply, but do not actually read what people are saying.

Again.
What if there is a language barrier, and the woman is unable to express her wish to have a different examiner?

What if she is young and lacks of confidence, or is worried about giving offence by asking if the rather masculine looking nurse is really a woman?

What if she has been raped and is suffering from PTSD?

What if she is not aware that she has a right to refuse?

What if she simply doesn't realise that the trans woman is not a biological female?

What if she is afraid that if she is not co-operative she will lose her room in the hostel and have to take her children back to the man who beat her?

It may well be the case that the law says that people have a right to refuse or withdraw from treatment or to ask in a police station for a different rape counsellor, or to leave a changing room in single sex swimming baths, or whatever, but that doesn't mean that it will always work like that. And why should women always be the ones to shuffle up and make space for men, just because they want us to?

For anyone who is worried about safe spaces for women I present this account

"Dear Women’s Organisations, We are women survivors of systemic male violence in all its forms. As you probably know, 98% of sexual offences and 80% of violent crimes are committed by males against females and not the reverse. We have suffered every kind of horror inflicted on our bodies and minds. For many of us we are battling every day with trauma symptoms. Speaking out is not easy for us and we respectfully ask that you listen. As you may be aware the government is considering changes to the Gender Recognition Act.
We are extremely concerned about these proposed changes which will allow any biological male to easily self-identify as a woman and will take away our fundamental right to natal female spaces. This would make it very difficult for you to refuse any male in women’s spaces even under the Equality Act exemptions. We are surprised that we, as survivors, are having to explain to you, women’s organisations, why we don’t want biological males in our spaces but we have no choice but to speak out in the face of a barrage of online verbal abuse, death threats and threats of male sexual torture.
1. We object to being made invisible as survivors of male violence. We object to our needs being disregarded and made less of a priority than those of trans people We are being put second in the following ways: a. We are being forced to submit to the transgender activist world view that a woman is a feeling in someone’s head, rather than a biological reality Please think about whether you honestly believe this and that women don’t experience biology based oppressions? If you don’t believe that woman is merely a feeling why are you validating this? Would you make a generic survivors group be from a Pagan or Muslim perspective to be inclusive of Pagan or Muslim women? If not why then make women and your whole service submit to a trans-activist world view? Pagan and Muslim women are not demanding this. No other oppressed group has demanded another group submit to their view of the world. Why is such a small group being prioritised to the point where women must sacrifice their sex based human rights?

We do not feel safe and mounting evidence shows we are not safe Women’s Aid motto is “Until Women and Children are Safe”. We do not feel safe having males in our spaces. If my rapist follows me you will ring 999. You will get the police to do safety checks on my welfare. If he comes near the refuge you will force me to leave there for my own safety and the safety of other women, yet if he puts on a dress and calls himself a woman you could welcome him into the refuge and call women bigots for objecting. Under the new law you may be forced to do this or at least you would find it very difficult to prevent. For some of us, our perpetrators were trans, at the time of abuse or transitioned later after abusing us."

I hear you doodledog and all the others that have engaged in good faith and engaged actual critical thought process.

trisher

Doodledog I don't know how many times do I have to say it. You are always free to refuse, to withdraw, to say "No" to ask for something else. No one is insisting you do anything.

Which is yet again putting women into a subservient role, of having their original request ignored/denied/misunderstood and having to ask nicely for an alternative. At the least, it’s inconvenient, at worst, it’s traumatising.

Thanks Chewbacca

Yes, thank you Chewbacca

As counter to that from women working in refuges in Scotland
The general resounding response was that every refuge space in Scotland is risk assessed and done so together with any survivor looking to access it. That means there’s balanced consideration of the safety and wellbeing of all their service users, every time. Every worker I spoke to confirmed that if a trans woman wasn’t able to access refuge it would not be on the basis that she was trans.

As a side note, this is why it sounds so daft when people run with: what if an abusive man pretends to be a woman on the basis of self ID in order to access a woman’s refuge? Firstly, where actually is the man who’s getting up to this because I’ve yet to see him (don’t answer that, it’s not a real question) and secondly, is that no more than a wee bit insulting to practitioners who I think would mibby know their perps from their survivors? Naw? Well failing that, they’ve got robust risk assessments in place anyway, and they use them all the time
.

So some people who work in refuges think its ok. Therefore the suffering of actual women, is irrelevant. Is that your point trisher.

Of course those risk assessments mean women never get abused. Frankly for someone who works at a refuge to call the legitimate fears of women 'daft' speaks to me of something other than professional objectivity.

It wont encourage Scottish women to seek refuge, will it.
The attitude sounds flippant.

Do you not think the NHS use safety assesments?

And yet:
www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-sexual-assault-patients-mental-health-mixed-sex-wards-a9273656.html

theconversation.com/they-wouldnt-let-me-call-anybody-women-in-mental-health-wards-need-better-protection-from-sexual-assault-131998

daft - that says a lot about the person making the comment, dismissing any concerns, like those expressed by the women in Chewbacca's post.
It feels very like the way in which women used to be dismissed by mental health professionals, the police, etc when they complained they were being controlled by emotional abuse.

What if there is a language barrier, and the woman is unable to express her wish to have a different examiner?
If you've accessed services including the NHS they try their best to find an interpreter but it is sometimes difficult for all people using health, social and education services, But it's a funding problem across the board and nothing to do with women (although some women do bring with them a male relative who may or may not be translating the woman's needs appropriately, especially with an injury)
What if she is young and lacks of confidence, or is worried about giving offence by asking if the rather masculine looking nurse is really a woman?
Well actually the rather masculine looking nurse may well be a woman. But perhaps if she is so young and vulnerable she should have an appropriate adult with her. My friend's daughter has Aspergers she's 20+ her mother accompanies her on medical appointments.
What if she has been raped and is suffering from PTSD?
From the NHS website
There are also specially trained advisers available in some SARCs or voluntary organisations to help people who have been sexually assaulted. These independent sexual violence advisers (ISVA) can help victims get access to the other support services they need.
The forensic medical examination usually takes place at a SARC or in a police suite. The examination is carried out by a doctor or nurse specially trained in sexual assault forensic medicine.
I'm no expert but that seems to cover it.
What if she is not aware that she has a right to refuse?
The right to ask for a different practitioner and to refuse examination should be displayed in hospitals and health centres. But actually in my experience most health practitioners ensure that you are happy explaining what they are going to do and asking permission beforehand.
What if she simply doesn't realise that the trans woman is not a biological female?
Does that matter? I don't know the sexual preferences of any health professional. I don't know their religion, I don't know their marital status. Because none of those things impact on the treatment I receive
What if she is afraid that if she is not co-operative she will lose her room in the hostel and have to take her children back to the man who beat her?
Would you like to withdraw this question? It implies that the workers in women's refuges are not only inadequate they are judgemental and vengeful.
It may well be the case that the law says that people have a right to refuse or withdraw from treatment or to ask in a police station for a different rape counsellor, or to leave a changing room in single sex swimming baths, or whatever, but that doesn't mean that it will always work like that. And why should women always be the ones to shuffle up and make space for men, just because they want us to?
You don't have to shuffle up unless you want to. There's room on the ark for us all.

No one has said there isn't abuse or women aren't sexually assaulted by men. It is seldom transwomen who do this though.
hugshelp if you really don't trust the women running women's refuges to do their job then there really isn't any point in having them is there? After all if they are as inadequate as you think women won't be safe in them anyway.

As I am sure you are aware, trisher, you are twisting what I am saying.

All of the examples I gave are of circumstances in which a woman might not feel able to say no, or to ask for someone else. I am not suggesting that refuges are likely to refuse help, but that a vulnerable woman might feel that this could happen. Similarly, you brought up the sexual preferences or marital status of practitioners, not me - are you cutting and pasting from something? That bit is entirely irrelevant, and cuts off rather abruptly. . .

Actually, I give up. It is clear that you are giving me the runaround here. If you bother to engage at all, it is to ask me to explain for the umpteenth time things that others grasped the first time, and I'm not playing any more.

I have no reason to assume that you are stupid, so the fact that you are claiming not to realise that the burger analogy was a metaphor rather than a food obsession, and that it is perfectly possible for a vulnerable woman not to realise that she can opt out of a difficult situation, particularly if she has been lied to (by omission or otherwise) would suggest that you are gaslighting me.

trisher are you totally unable to understand and empathise with women in refuges that are triggered by the presence of anyone with a male body, even if that male body identifies as a transwoman? Why do you think refuges don't have male staff, or allow older male children to stay with their mothers and female siblings? Not because the staff aren't able to do their best safeguarding vetting but because the presence of these individuals is traumatic to some women.
Why do we not allow all our lovely partners, fathers, sons, brothers free access to the few women only spaces? Not because every one of them is a threat to women, but because a minority are, so we ban them all because there's no simple way to tell. Self ID for transwomen totally negates this restriction.
May I ask what your definition/s of a woman is/are? Mine are the dictionary ones: adult human female; the sex that is intended to produce large gametes.

Arthur Britney Joestar is a non binary person from El Salvador who has this week been given refugee status to remain in the UK and be allowed to refer to himself as "she". They will now be allowed to be in a changing room, public toilet, any femail shared space, volunteer with any femail organisation, be in a hospital bed next to you, share a prison cell and, if so qualified, carry out any medical examinations. I'm not comfortable with this.

I let my hair grow and I started to define myself as non-binary, because I love the best of both of sides of the spectrum: I love gorgeous long blond hair, along with regular man clothes, and
a touch of spice with my nail polish.

So where does that leave women, when a man can just select which bits of femininity they want to embrace that day?

Rosie51 I've said it before but I appreciate you probably didn't read it then. If someone stands beside me, if they look like a woman, if they are active about issues that affect women (like period poverty, waspie women, women's health issues) if they say they are a woman, present as a woman and identify as a woman I am willing to accept them as my sister. I don't propose to ask for a birth certificate or examine their genitals.

I trust the women running refuges to protect all the vulnerable inhabitants in their care because that is the field they have expertise in. Not to do so is not only insulting it's dangerous.

I've said before some men rape, some men are violent some men are liars some men are criminals, but we don't punish all men because of that, why on earth should we punish all transpeople because of the actions or opinions of one or two?

Doodledog At no time have I ever made personal or abusive remarks about you on this thread. I do not know you. I do think your vegetarian argument completely out of place on this thread but I attempted to use that analogy so you might better understand my point of view, which actually you ignored. When you accused me of over simplyfying and not giving answers I actually replied to each of your points although the actual concept, that you have choice, remains the same, I bothered to give you specifics and details. For taking that time and effort you accuse me of "giving you the runaround". As for cutting and pasting if I use a quote I always make sure it is indicated by italics.
Of course it is possible for anyone not to know their rights that includes young people taken to police stations, children in schools who are sometimes excluded for inadequate reasons, and many other people. It isn't an exclusive preserve of young women and it is best addressed through activism and education, two areas I have been active in all my life. It has never been progressed or developed by simply victimising one section of society. It needs better communication and implementation of human rights standards in all areas. I am proud of my own record in that area, particularly with children's rights.

Chewbacca

^I let my hair grow and I started to define myself as non-binary, because I love the best of both^ of sides of the spectrum: I love gorgeous long blond hair, along with regular man clothes, and
a touch of spice with my nail polish.

So where does that leave women, when a man can just select which bits of femininity they want to embrace that day?

because I love the best of both of sides of the spectrum
So where does that leave women

even later in the same day, having gained access to a safe space for women, when Arthur/Britney decides to embrace his masculine side of the spectrum?

"If ifs and ands were pots and pans" as my mum used to say.
If someone really wants to assault a woman he can do it anywhere. Why bother to go into a safe space? Go into a public loo. No one will stop you. There isn't a police man or woman on the door. Do it in a back lane. It''s much easier.

Women put their safely in the hands of professionals all that time. That doesn't stop hundreds of women being assaulted and murdered every year in the UK. Women who were failed by the system. Women are raped in hospitals. And yes women are raped in refuges. So maybe those women don't want to put all their eggs in one basket regarding their own safety.

Sticking up for the safety of women is not punishing trans people. Any more than not allowing men into women's safe spaces is about punishing men. It is about safeguarding women. As the majority of non-predatory men seem perfectly able to accept.

What about a man who identifies as a 6 year old girl. Should he be allowed to go to school with 6 year olds, change with them, compete at sports day against them?
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

The statistical evidence backs up pretty much none of what you say trisha

If someone stands beside me, if they look like a woman, if they are active about issues that affect women (like period poverty, waspie women, women's health issues) if they say they are a woman, present as a woman and identify as a woman I am willing to accept them as my sister. I don't propose to ask for a birth certificate or examine their genitals.

trisher this is my problem, what on earth does a woman look like or present as? I fear we are being lulled into 50s stereotypical images of women, surely the most retrograde step ever. Women are not hair, nails, dresses and fluffy kittens they are scientists, engineers, and anything else they wish!

The term Trans has come to include all manner of behaviours and appearances that a far far removed from the trans sexual individuals who “pass” and live amongst us. Stonewall, who state “acceptance without exception” define trans as

TRANS
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

If we breakdown the lawful boundaries around female only spaces and the social convention that goes along with it and biological sex becomes meaningless, how do we protect vulnerable women and children from the opportunist.

Eddie Izzard on his first day in women's clothes, (not as trans though, he just liked to wear women's clothes), was chased out of a woman's public loo by a group of teenage girls. How were the girls supposed to know his intentions? Was he right or wrong to be in there in the first place?

I want to thank all the women who have contributed thoughtful, open-minded, considerate, meaningful discussion to this thread, and to farnorth for starting it. However my own psychological wellbeing is worth more to me than sticking around where I feel women are being gaslit, subjected to juvenile point-scoring, and misogynistic preaching. I have no desire to respond further to comments which seem to me to be puerile and designed to do no more than illicit any response that can be further twisted to a specific agenda. Naturally that is just my opinion, and I do not suggest others have to agree with it.
I wish you all well, whatever your beliefs.