Eddie Izzard

Rosie51 when you have just been told you need to do a course on-line I think pretend feminists is quite accurate. I didn't start the insults but I can argue if necessary.
The only reason disabled spaces are necessary is because the world is not made fully accessible to all. The idea that you are somehow being good by granting disabled people special provision is roundly rejected by the disability rights movement. Try googling "Tragic but Brave" or in the words of one disabled songwriter
You really should be grateful
For all we do for you
And be a quiet little crip
Without a chip. (Ian Stanton, ‘Chip on yer Shoulder’, 1995)
Of course people undergo checks that is the whole point. Proper risk ssessment is what is needed not some blanket ban.
As for the argument about Jewish and Muslim women. If they do not for religious reasons accept transwomen as women then perhaps we should have seperate sessions in swimming baths for them, the question then being of course would Jewish women accept sharing the pool with Muslim women and vice versa?
Although once again how you would actually know a transwoman was in the pool I have no idea. They are already around anyway.

Incidentally are you suggesting there are no Jewish or Muslim transwomen? Isn'tthat a bit racist? I'm sure there must be.

trisher I have disabled family members so do have some insight. If you actually think every public toilet can be a large room with adult changing bed with hoist I think you'll be waiting a long time. My family member would just like there to be one in as many locations as possible, but accepts that in many buildings this is just not possible.

With the proposals for complete self ID, trans women will not be the only ones you keep repeating are around anyway, and going largely unnoticed. Men who do not have any hormone or surgical treatments to feminise themselves tend to be easily identified as men. When I go to the ballet (sigh, pre covid times) it's not just the tutu that is the obvious difference between the male and female dancers. And I defy anyone not noticing Alex Drummond (or others like him) at a women only swim session!

No I am certainly not suggesting there are no Jewish or Muslim trans women and I find it extremely offensive that you've suggested I'm racist. I would hope that any would have respect for their religious sisters knowing the tenets of their beliefs and would avail themselves of mixed sessions rather than having to attend the one female only session per week. Validating themselves over a greater number of others is selfish and egotistical in the extreme.

trisher if you object to someone's comment (eg find a course) then take it up with that person.
A general insult to feminists, who happen not to agree with you, is not an appropriate response.

But if a transwoman believes she is a woman Rosie51 and she is Jewish or Muslim wouldn't she believe she should attend all women groups and not mixed groups where there would be men?
FarNorth OK I apologise to all the real feminists out there.

Dead. Flogging. Horse.

Rosie51 I too have disabled family members (that's the thing they are everywhere) I also have friends active in the disability rights movement and if you asked them about the public toilet they would ask "why not?". It shouldn't matter what someone needs to live a positive and active life, it should be provided.

Perhaps Chewbacca but I'm waiting for my baking to finish and it's not worth getting my book.

OK, I get it now. Any conflict of interest and the trans person's rights top any other consideration.

trisher, Its a real pity that this subject can't be discussed without you suggesting others who don't share your particular take on trans issues is somehow inadequately educated, not a proper feminist/doesn't understand disability issues/is racist/sexist/lacking in compassion etc etc etc.

We are a group of older women. No one yet has said they are from the trans community but several of us have trans loved ones or acquaintances. So far as I have gathered, we have all lived our lives as girls then as women. That is our shared lived experience. That gives us the right to discuss complex issues without being dismissed as just wrong.

Nothing to do with that but a question of belief and practicality. You may think a transwoman isn't a woman but if she believes she is one she's going to do the things other women do. Now if you think she shouldn't be doing them you have to find out first of all who is a transwoman and then work out how you are going to prevent them from doing those things.

Iam64 perhaps I am too influenced by my friends in the disability rights movement, compared with them I'm a pussy cat. They tend to get very irate when people tell them how grateful they should be. But it is amazing how many people still accept the medical model and don'tknow about the social model.

Has it ever occurred to you that patronising other posters doesn't develop a discussion, rather it closes it down. Some of us were discussing medical/social models 50 years ago.

trisher

Iam64 perhaps I am too influenced by my friends in the disability rights movement, compared with them I'm a pussy cat. They tend to get very irate when people tell them how grateful they should be. But it is amazing how many people still accept the medical model and don'tknow about the social model.

.

Perhaps you were Iam64 if so then you will recognise the posts that indicate some people are really unaware of it. As for the patronising I've tried discussing things rationally, and just got tired of it all. (My disability rights friends would probably say" but you did FA about it!.)

Eddie is interesting if you listen to his autobiography he likens gender to a sliding scale, which can change.
But surely that’s it, your gender can’t change it can be changed but it can’t change itself
thank God for modern science that can help the change when it’s needed but you can’t be a man one day, a woman the next and then a man again the next that’s just a way of saying I want the best of both worlds I m special and I m arrogant enough to believe I m special enough to be what I want, I know best

I have every empathy to someone who feels they were born in the wrong body and finds they need to change to preserve their mental health but no I don’t like izzards attitude at all

Doodledog brilliant!

trisher

LumpySpacedPrincess

trisher

Equalites are never thrown away by accepting that others have them. They are however threatened every time we allow someone to be persecuted or denied their human rights. Inequality requires some be thought of as less than others.

So we should allow white people to access rights set aside for BAME people? Men to access rights set aside for children? Able bodied people to access rights and services set aside for people with disabilities?

Rights are nuanced and often hard won, they allow people to take part fully in society. In short it's okay to say No to men sometimes. Boundaries and safeguarding. There are many courses online, often free, you might want to look some up...

Actually LSP if you know anything about disability rights you would know they don't want special spaces. What they want is access to all spaces. It's the difference between the medical model of disability (there's something wrong with them and they need to be fixed) and the social model (society is wrong and needs to change to accommodate their needs). There's a lot of information about it on line.
As for all the business about men accessing women's spaces. It's few and far between. It won't change lives. It's happening anyway and it needs proper regulations not a few pretend feminists bnging on about it and pretending it's actually dangerous.
Real feminists support the less privileged, the underdog , the 'Other' as Simone De Beauvoir called them, be they gay, lesbian queer or trans.
I did ask about men and children. If you want to answer my question- Most paedophiles are men but we don't stop them all working with children.
A few transwomen are abusive and yet they all have to be sanctioned. Why?
Do women deserve more protection than children?

As a disabled woman, with a disabled daughter I hope I'm allowed to say that there are instances when we do appreciate special spaces. Such as disabled parking spots which are not only nearer to the required destination but are extra wide to allow wheelchair access and have an appropriate dropped kerb. Such as toilets which are not only accessible but have support bars, and a dropped sink available. Appropriate housing for our particular needs. Medical facilities.
Yes it's true that access in general is severely limited and all would welcome improved access all round, but most disabled people are sensible enough to know that not every parking space and toilet are going to be designed to cover every disability. Not every house or hospital bed will cater for every need. Therefore we do appreciate it when those who do not need these facilities do not take them when a disabled person cannot manage without them.

hugshelp you mirror those disabled within my family with your expectations. The one who requires a hoist and adult length changing facilities recognises that not every toilet cubicle can be large enough to accommodate all this, it would severely limit availability to other users and costs would go through the roof! Of course accessible toilets should be more widely available, and a recognition that not all disabilities are visible (we have severe autism, learning difficulties etc too). The key is those not needing specialist facilities not using them, thus freeing them up for those that do need them.

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This is Kathryn Bristow of the Green Party. I think it's fairly obvious that Bristow is a male.
Likewise, Izzard is obviously male.
You keep telling us we'll have no idea who is a transwoman, trisher, yet it's becoming more and more common for transwomen to be very obvious.
Why should such people be accepted as women when they are clearly not?

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Here is someone else, Sean / Rose Taylor, who is clearly male and who has recently won a legal case against Jaguar Land Rover for not accommodating him well enough and not protecting him from harassment.

a-question-of-consent.net/2021/01/02/taylor-v-jaguar-landrover-a-landmark-case-or-losing-sight-of-the-landmarks-of-reality/

Thanks for that FarNorth. Very interesting. This nicely shows the difficulty we are in and the mess that can result from that confusion.

I've been castigated on this thread earlier (if you can be bothered to read it all) because I posted that if someone presented as a woman I would accept them. I was asked what a woman was supposed to look like, now apparently the same people are telling me what a woman can't look like. Well I don't know, I'll fully admit. I can't tell sometimes so all I can do is rely on people for the most part being open and honest.But what would you do? Refuse everyone admission who looks a bit masculine? Tall women like my friend who is almost 6ft, has short hair and doesn't wear make up might suffer of course. Does that matter? I think it does.

hugshelp and Rosie51 of course you are entitled to be grateful for the things that are provided for disabilities. They were hard won by people who chained themselves to buses and tube trains etc in the past. They are still active and still concerned that people should never be defined by their condition but should be fully able to access all facilities and reach their full potential, which it is evident is still not the case.