Eddie Izzard

hugshelp you mirror those disabled within my family with your expectations. The one who requires a hoist and adult length changing facilities recognises that not every toilet cubicle can be large enough to accommodate all this, it would severely limit availability to other users and costs would go through the roof! Of course accessible toilets should be more widely available, and a recognition that not all disabilities are visible (we have severe autism, learning difficulties etc too). The key is those not needing specialist facilities not using them, thus freeing them up for those that do need them.

trisher

LumpySpacedPrincess

trisher

Equalites are never thrown away by accepting that others have them. They are however threatened every time we allow someone to be persecuted or denied their human rights. Inequality requires some be thought of as less than others.

So we should allow white people to access rights set aside for BAME people? Men to access rights set aside for children? Able bodied people to access rights and services set aside for people with disabilities?

Rights are nuanced and often hard won, they allow people to take part fully in society. In short it's okay to say No to men sometimes. Boundaries and safeguarding. There are many courses online, often free, you might want to look some up...

Actually LSP if you know anything about disability rights you would know they don't want special spaces. What they want is access to all spaces. It's the difference between the medical model of disability (there's something wrong with them and they need to be fixed) and the social model (society is wrong and needs to change to accommodate their needs). There's a lot of information about it on line.
As for all the business about men accessing women's spaces. It's few and far between. It won't change lives. It's happening anyway and it needs proper regulations not a few pretend feminists bnging on about it and pretending it's actually dangerous.
Real feminists support the less privileged, the underdog , the 'Other' as Simone De Beauvoir called them, be they gay, lesbian queer or trans.
I did ask about men and children. If you want to answer my question- Most paedophiles are men but we don't stop them all working with children.
A few transwomen are abusive and yet they all have to be sanctioned. Why?
Do women deserve more protection than children?

As a disabled woman, with a disabled daughter I hope I'm allowed to say that there are instances when we do appreciate special spaces. Such as disabled parking spots which are not only nearer to the required destination but are extra wide to allow wheelchair access and have an appropriate dropped kerb. Such as toilets which are not only accessible but have support bars, and a dropped sink available. Appropriate housing for our particular needs. Medical facilities.
Yes it's true that access in general is severely limited and all would welcome improved access all round, but most disabled people are sensible enough to know that not every parking space and toilet are going to be designed to cover every disability. Not every house or hospital bed will cater for every need. Therefore we do appreciate it when those who do not need these facilities do not take them when a disabled person cannot manage without them.

Doodledog brilliant!

Eddie is interesting if you listen to his autobiography he likens gender to a sliding scale, which can change.
But surely that’s it, your gender can’t change it can be changed but it can’t change itself
thank God for modern science that can help the change when it’s needed but you can’t be a man one day, a woman the next and then a man again the next that’s just a way of saying I want the best of both worlds I m special and I m arrogant enough to believe I m special enough to be what I want, I know best

I have every empathy to someone who feels they were born in the wrong body and finds they need to change to preserve their mental health but no I don’t like izzards attitude at all

Perhaps you were Iam64 if so then you will recognise the posts that indicate some people are really unaware of it. As for the patronising I've tried discussing things rationally, and just got tired of it all. (My disability rights friends would probably say" but you did FA about it!.)

trisher

Iam64 perhaps I am too influenced by my friends in the disability rights movement, compared with them I'm a pussy cat. They tend to get very irate when people tell them how grateful they should be. But it is amazing how many people still accept the medical model and don'tknow about the social model.

.

Has it ever occurred to you that patronising other posters doesn't develop a discussion, rather it closes it down. Some of us were discussing medical/social models 50 years ago.

Iam64 perhaps I am too influenced by my friends in the disability rights movement, compared with them I'm a pussy cat. They tend to get very irate when people tell them how grateful they should be. But it is amazing how many people still accept the medical model and don'tknow about the social model.

Nothing to do with that but a question of belief and practicality. You may think a transwoman isn't a woman but if she believes she is one she's going to do the things other women do. Now if you think she shouldn't be doing them you have to find out first of all who is a transwoman and then work out how you are going to prevent them from doing those things.

trisher, Its a real pity that this subject can't be discussed without you suggesting others who don't share your particular take on trans issues is somehow inadequately educated, not a proper feminist/doesn't understand disability issues/is racist/sexist/lacking in compassion etc etc etc.

We are a group of older women. No one yet has said they are from the trans community but several of us have trans loved ones or acquaintances. So far as I have gathered, we have all lived our lives as girls then as women. That is our shared lived experience. That gives us the right to discuss complex issues without being dismissed as just wrong.

OK, I get it now. Any conflict of interest and the trans person's rights top any other consideration.

Perhaps Chewbacca but I'm waiting for my baking to finish and it's not worth getting my book.

Rosie51 I too have disabled family members (that's the thing they are everywhere) I also have friends active in the disability rights movement and if you asked them about the public toilet they would ask "why not?". It shouldn't matter what someone needs to live a positive and active life, it should be provided.

Dead. Flogging. Horse.

But if a transwoman believes she is a woman Rosie51 and she is Jewish or Muslim wouldn't she believe she should attend all women groups and not mixed groups where there would be men?
FarNorth OK I apologise to all the real feminists out there.

trisher if you object to someone's comment (eg find a course) then take it up with that person.
A general insult to feminists, who happen not to agree with you, is not an appropriate response.

No I am certainly not suggesting there are no Jewish or Muslim trans women and I find it extremely offensive that you've suggested I'm racist. I would hope that any would have respect for their religious sisters knowing the tenets of their beliefs and would avail themselves of mixed sessions rather than having to attend the one female only session per week. Validating themselves over a greater number of others is selfish and egotistical in the extreme.

trisher I have disabled family members so do have some insight. If you actually think every public toilet can be a large room with adult changing bed with hoist I think you'll be waiting a long time. My family member would just like there to be one in as many locations as possible, but accepts that in many buildings this is just not possible.

With the proposals for complete self ID, trans women will not be the only ones you keep repeating are around anyway, and going largely unnoticed. Men who do not have any hormone or surgical treatments to feminise themselves tend to be easily identified as men. When I go to the ballet (sigh, pre covid times) it's not just the tutu that is the obvious difference between the male and female dancers. And I defy anyone not noticing Alex Drummond (or others like him) at a women only swim session!

Incidentally are you suggesting there are no Jewish or Muslim transwomen? Isn'tthat a bit racist? I'm sure there must be.

Rosie51 when you have just been told you need to do a course on-line I think pretend feminists is quite accurate. I didn't start the insults but I can argue if necessary.
The only reason disabled spaces are necessary is because the world is not made fully accessible to all. The idea that you are somehow being good by granting disabled people special provision is roundly rejected by the disability rights movement. Try googling "Tragic but Brave" or in the words of one disabled songwriter
You really should be grateful
For all we do for you
And be a quiet little crip
Without a chip. (Ian Stanton, ‘Chip on yer Shoulder’, 1995)
Of course people undergo checks that is the whole point. Proper risk ssessment is what is needed not some blanket ban.
As for the argument about Jewish and Muslim women. If they do not for religious reasons accept transwomen as women then perhaps we should have seperate sessions in swimming baths for them, the question then being of course would Jewish women accept sharing the pool with Muslim women and vice versa?
Although once again how you would actually know a transwoman was in the pool I have no idea. They are already around anyway.

Transwomen are not women and can never be women as biologically, they will always be male. The X and Y chromosome cannot be altered.

There should be guaranteed legal protections to ensure that single sex spaces will continue to exist to protect women and girls.

Of course Transwomen should be afforded protection from harassment and assault, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF WOMEN.

Either build safe units within men’s existing institutions or provide separate facilities.

I’m fed up of women always having to step aside both literally and figuratively for men.

Men need to find their own solutions.

trisher pretend feminists how very insulting to anybody who doesn't tow your particular line, I really think it's unnecessary. Aside from that how do you reconcile when there are conflicting protected characteristics? The easiest is swimming pools. Muslim, and some Jewish women are not permitted to mix in this situation with men. When a pool decides its women only session is now open to those who identify as women, even though they are biological males, they exclude these women. Transwomen can attend mixed bathing sessions so are not being denied the chance to swim. Muslim women can't so are denied any chance.

Strangely enough the disabled people I know need special spaces reserved entirely for them in order to access all spaces. Special reserved parking spaces, accessible toilet provision, some with hoists and adult length changing facilities. On the buses in my area, while people are allowed to place baby buggies in the disabled area when it's unoccupied, if a wheelchair user wants to board then they have priority, their rights and needs outweighing the baby's need, and baby moves.

Some women are paedophiles, not many just a few. Some men are paedophiles, a greater number by far than women, but certainly not all or even a majority. All men and women have to go through checks before being allowed to work with children. These are not foolproof, but everyone is obliged to undergo the same checks. Most men are not a danger to women but we have a blanket ban on men who identify as men on women's hospital wards, changing rooms, swim sessions, prisons, refuges and a host of other places. We deny them all because there is no way of knowing who is a danger and for reasons of privacy, dignity etc An easy solution is to have male, female and mixed provision. On that note sport can also be accommodated by an open category and a female sex category. Everyone can then take part.

LumpySpacedPrincess

trisher

Equalites are never thrown away by accepting that others have them. They are however threatened every time we allow someone to be persecuted or denied their human rights. Inequality requires some be thought of as less than others.

So we should allow white people to access rights set aside for BAME people? Men to access rights set aside for children? Able bodied people to access rights and services set aside for people with disabilities?

Rights are nuanced and often hard won, they allow people to take part fully in society. In short it's okay to say No to men sometimes. Boundaries and safeguarding. There are many courses online, often free, you might want to look some up...

Actually LSP if you know anything about disability rights you would know they don't want special spaces. What they want is access to all spaces. It's the difference between the medical model of disability (there's something wrong with them and they need to be fixed) and the social model (society is wrong and needs to change to accommodate their needs). There's a lot of information about it on line.
As for all the business about men accessing women's spaces. It's few and far between. It won't change lives. It's happening anyway and it needs proper regulations not a few pretend feminists bnging on about it and pretending it's actually dangerous.
Real feminists support the less privileged, the underdog , the 'Other' as Simone De Beauvoir called them, be they gay, lesbian queer or trans.
I did ask about men and children. If you want to answer my question- Most paedophiles are men but we don't stop them all working with children.
A few transwomen are abusive and yet they all have to be sanctioned. Why?
Do women deserve more protection than children?

kjmpde the polite way of doing it if you are with the person is to ask. I've been (before lockdown) to quite a few workshops where everyone was asked to say which pronoun they preferred, young people seem to have no problem with it.
Eddie is interesting if you listen to his autobiography he likens gender to a sliding scale, which can change.
Perhaps it would be better if there was more acceptance of make up and different clothes for men. There was briefly a time in the 80s-New Romantics?

trisher

Equalites are never thrown away by accepting that others have them. They are however threatened every time we allow someone to be persecuted or denied their human rights. Inequality requires some be thought of as less than others.

So we should allow white people to access rights set aside for BAME people? Men to access rights set aside for children? Able bodied people to access rights and services set aside for people with disabilities?

Rights are nuanced and often hard won, they allow people to take part fully in society. In short it's okay to say No to men sometimes. Boundaries and safeguarding. There are many courses online, often free, you might want to look some up...