Eddie Izzard

How about men are kinder to feminine men, surely that's the answer. Men be kind to other men regardless of how they look.

There's a good idea

LumpySpacedPrincess I do admire you! I've been asking the exact same questions, on previous threads about trans women, and I also got no coherent replies. I'm watching patiently to see if you do.

trisher to go back to your point that someone is a woman if they look like one - Izzard does not look like a woman unless we accept that lipstick and skirts are all that's needed to be a woman.
No-one would have to check inside Izzard's pants to know that he's not a woman.

(Btw, I don't agree with you that 'passing' as a woman means someone actually is a woman.)

trisher

So explain what you see as a suitable alternative Doodledog if you don't like self id, what would you like?
And yes women's rights are being eroded in the US, not though I think by left wing feminists. But by the same people targetting trans people whilst pretending to support women. Won't be long until it's here either. The right wing churches already exist with huge funding from the US.
Standing besides a transwoman does not impact on my rights, denying that transwomen rights does.
Amazing isn't it when you post something which challenges someone's concepts you are accused of being condescending.
The swearng doesn't bother me LSP the hate speech does. I don't understand why it is OK for her to say such things if hate speech from trans activists is condemned.
Incidentally I've never been "nice", "quiet" or "stepped aside" quite the reverse.
The changing rooms and toilets argument is so passe. No one knows what genitals most people in a changing room have. And who is ging to check?

Gosh, where to start. Yes, we recognise which sex people are, it's one of our most basic instincts. Redefining female to include any male who says he's a woman impacts on all women. The toilets argument that you call passe is impacting on girls who no longer go to the loo when they are at school as they don't feel comfortable in mixed sexed toilets.

That's not passe, that's sexism. Girls made uncomfortable and excluded from public life so men and boys can have more but...yeah...passe..

...any chance of you answering any of those questions trisher? Or giving a reason why not?

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1088490/girls-avoid-school-unisex-loos-period-shaming-sexual-harassment

...so passe....

LSP girls didn't go to toilets in schools when they were single sex because that was where the "bad" girls hung out and beat you up. Lots of schools locked toilets and only opened them when a member of staff could supervise. This idea that girls don't hurt other girls really isn't true. It's once again a myth which is being used to justify victimisation.
It's passe because if someone presents as a woman who is going to deny them access to a toilet? It can't happen. It's a non-argument. It's passe.

Ah the Express and one parent in Wales- well it must be true musn't it?

I work in a school trisher, what you are saying is not true.

trisher I am not saying that you are condescending because you are 'challenging my concepts'. I am saying it because of your tone, which strongly suggests that you think that you are the only person on here who understands the issues, and that the reason so many of us disagree with you is that we are not intelligent enough, or well-informed enough to grasp the ideas.

I have explained many times that I think that self-id is a problem for the simple reason that many women feel vulnerable, or have religious objections to being alone with or examined intimately by, someone with a penis.

What I would prefer, for the hundredth time, is for it to be an offence for a man (or person with a penis) to be in intimate situations with vulnerable women without making it clear that this is what is happening, and for the woman to have a right to refuse that contact if she is unhappy about it. After transition, there is no issue, as far as I am concerned.

I can't foresee that there would be many situations such as I describe, and for that reason I think it would be relatively easy for transwomen to live perfectly normal lives as women without ever needing to 'out' themselves. If they insist on being in intimate situations with vulnerable women who object, I would want to know the reason why - wouldn't you?

Please don't suggest a risk assessment. How can someone perform a risk assessment when the risk is that a vulnerable woman is tricked into being in intimate contact with a man/someone with a penis and it is considered discriminatory to even ask about their biological sex?

Do you think that women do not have a right to have a say in who examines them or has intimate contact with them?

What is presenting as a woman trisher? Can a teenage girl undress without males being present? Can a woman request a female caregiver after an assault? If my granddaughter shares accommodation can she request single sex or will she be labelled as phobic? When gathering medical data for females should transwomen be included?

What are your thoughts on male violence trisher?

Do female women have the right to privacy and dignity?

But Doodledog you can refuse to be examined by anyone for any reason. In fact you don't have to give a reason simply say "No I don't want you to examine me". With or without a penis if you are uncomfortable with someone of course you should have the right to ask for someone else. That is absolutely anyone's right male, female, non-binary or anything else. The question is how would you know? By looks? Not all transgender people are able to have surgery, so perhaps a transwoman might still have a penis, would you expect her to tell every patient she examined? Would it therefore be appropriate for every medical professional to reveal details of their genitalia to all patients?

Again, I wonder if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

Why would someone refuse to be examined by someone who looks like a woman, even if the idea of a man touching them would repel them if they knew? What about a girl who is too embarrassed to ask if a doctor is a man in a dress? What about religious objections that are not about presentation, but about sex? How is it ethical to mislead people like this? You may have no objection to being intimately examined by a man, but there are many women who do object, and their rights are being swept aside.

Yes, I would expect a transwoman who was a doctor to avoid intimate examinations if she did not want to make her status known (which would be understandable). Specialise in one of the numerous medical areas that do not involve intimate examinations. Don't become a GP. There are ways around it, which may be difficult in rare circumstances, but they would not put the doctor in a worse position than if they had not self-id'd as female.

I am not arguing anything that would make life more difficult for women who were born male - if they stayed male there would be women who would prefer not to be touched by them. Why should identifying as female give them additional rights?

"Last year Girlguiding UK opted to let men join as leaders if they feel they have been born in the "wrong body". The Guide Association caters for girls aged 4-7 (Rainbows), 7-10 (Brownies), 10-14 (Guides) and 14-18 (Rangers). So under the policy men aged 18 and over could share the same facilities as a young girl without her parents’ knowledge. Now they have sacked at least two local guide group leaders for expressing concerns. The safety of thousands of girls is being trampled on to satisfy the demands of a miniscule number of trans activists. And those who speak out to raise concerns are being silenced. This ‘girls only’ space is no more – aided and abetted by a national leadership more interested in showing off their political correctness credentials than protecting the half a million young women it claims to represent. Allowing men to join as leaders if they ‘self-identify’ as women, allowing boys to share showers and sleeping facilities, tells these girls that their womanhood – as well as their safety – is of secondary importance to the trans agenda. The very few people who believe they are ‘trapped in the wrong body’ need our help, our respect and our friendship. They should receive it. However, this should not come at the price of the girls themselves, their parents and dissenting leaders."

My thoughts on all violence are the same as my thoughts on all hate speech LSP it is never acceptable whoever is responsible for it.
As far as male violence is concerned by far the largest number of people affected by this are young men between the ages of 16 and 25. The idea that only women are subjected to violence by men is completely false. www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence
As far as all the stuff about changing rooms and single sex accommodation goes the same answer applies. I don't inspect genitalia nor do I expect others to do so. Presenting as a woman is I would have thought fairly obvious, if it isn't then you have an answer, you can't tell so can it matter?

I haven't followed the whole thread but would just like to say I watched Eddie Izzard yesterday in the movie 'Valkyrie' with Tom Cruise. He was playing a Nazi and was most definitely a man.

you can't tell so can it matter?

It might, to the little girl who has to share her camping tent with a man in a dress.

trisher

My thoughts on all violence are the same as my thoughts on all hate speech LSP it is never acceptable whoever is responsible for it.
As far as male violence is concerned by far the largest number of people affected by this are young men between the ages of 16 and 25. The idea that only women are subjected to violence by men is completely false. www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence
As far as all the stuff about changing rooms and single sex accommodation goes the same answer applies. I don't inspect genitalia nor do I expect others to do so. Presenting as a woman is I would have thought fairly obvious, if it isn't then you have an answer, you can't tell so can it matter?

Yes, men hurt men and men hurt women. Women and girls deserve some space away from men until they sort this out. Seriously, why would you think otherwise? You are coming across as a men's rights activist and you have found a comfortable home.

Chewbacca If self-id is a legal process and not as some seem to think someone simply waking up one morning and declaring themselves a woman then the usual legal process of a DBS would apply. This would reveal any crimes committed under any previous name or gender.
I've never liked sharing showers with others male or female. Interestingly our local swimming bath has banned women stripping off their costumes in the communal showers because someone objected. I do wonder how Swedes who share saunas etc regard us?

We had cold shared showers after games in my school and a rather predatory games mistress who used to watch us all.

Presenting as a woman is I would have thought fairly obvious, if it isn't then you have an answer, you can't tell so can it matter?

What does that even mean? We can tell the difference between the sexes. This need to get one over on women is concerning.

trisher

We had cold shared showers after games in my school and a rather predatory games mistress who used to watch us all.

Sure Jan...

If self-id is a legal process..... But it isn't it? Anyone now has the right to "wake up one morning" and simply decide that they are a man/woman, as Eddie Izzard has stated. As for DBS checks.... well, we all know how effective they've been in making sure that predators are kept away from the vulnerable, don't we?

Again, it matters because there are women do not want to be touched by men. That should be enough, and all we need to know.

Their rights should, IMO, take precedence over people who do not want to declare their birth sex. It’s really that simple. Say that they don’t know so it doesn’t matter is like feeding a beef burger to a vegetarian and saying it is soya. Unethical, wrong and riding roughshod over their rights.

trisher

We had cold shared showers after games in my school and a rather predatory games mistress who used to watch us all.

What is your point here, please?