can we discuss feminism please

I think thinking trousers and short hair is anything to do with what sex you are is the ultimate in sexism.

You arent smashing the patriarchy you are reinforcing it, you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.

Galaxy

I think thinking trousers and short hair is anything to do with what sex you are is the ultimate in sexism.

It's a 3 year old. Not sure the child could yet be accused of sexism.

I wasnt talking about the child. But those who equate those points with sex.

Galaxy

You arent smashing the patriarchy you are reinforcing it, you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.

Agreed. The patriarchy will be laughing up its collective sleeve at the idea that women claiming to be feminists are insisting on the right of men to barge into female spaces and be accepted as women even though they have no experience of female socialisation or the sort of solidarity that comes from years of living in a patriarchal society.

A man wants to 'embrace his feminine side'? Oh, he must be a woman. 'Real men' aren't nurturing, communicative and caring.

A girl prefers wearing jeans and climbing trees to wearing dresses and playing with dolls? Well obviously she should have been born a man. 'Real women' want to wear make-up and have babies.

To me, those attitudes totally reinforce the patriarchy, and define gender roles which could (and should) be made obsolete, instead of people who don't appear to fit the societal norms which have been assigned to gender.

Genuinely misgendered people should have no problem with getting all the help they need to live whichever way they want to. For the 787304th time, however, that is not the issue. The issue is with self-identifying transwomen being granted the meagre concessions that women have fought for, whilst simultaneously keeping the numerous rights of men.

And like Iam64, I don't see anti-trans comments on here, but I do see anti-feminist ones. I agree with MBHP1 when she says:
I believe it is by design that the Women’s movement has been split, that women rights are being erased, that even the identity of ‘female’, ‘woman’ is being redefined.

It seems a bit odd to me to state Transmen really dont have the advantages of a man. They have been socialised as girls for a start. And then when a case is presented that contradicts that claim state you are ensuring the straight jacket of gender is tightened, that person must be a boy because they have short hair and wear trousers.
I didn't say anyone was anything I said the child said she was a boy, chose a boy's name dressed as a boy and participated in boy's activities.
Now I'm not responsible for the social norms of all society much as you might like to make me. I'm simply pointing out the all transmen are not necessarily socialised as girls all their lives. I'm absolutely in favour of raising chldren in a gender neutral society and combatting stereotypical roles. But the issue of transmen remains and it isn't addressed by claming I think girls wearing trousers are boys which is entirely erroneous anyway.
Doodledog It may well be that the women's movement has been deliberately split. The question then being who will stand to gain the most from that split and I don't believe it is feminist men, transmen or indeed most men, it is the conservative reactionary right wing fundamentalist Christians you seem to be quite happy to align yourself with. They are rolling back abortion rights even now, whilst you spend hours arguing about transpeople and how they will ruin your rights, they are eroding them.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gaga, I promise that I am not dehumanising anyone, and nor, as far as I can see, is anyone else on this thread. What makes you say that, and why do you refuse to accept that the people on this thread are not transphobes?

It is not transpeople who concern us, we are concerned for the reasons we have repeated to the point of tedium.

trisher I'm sure you didn't mean not to answer my question, but I'll repost it here as you obviously missed it.
Why do you think there is legislation permitting single sex space exemptions in the equality act?

Is there an anti trans movement? This seems to have passed me by. I see people expressing concerns and being shouted down and accused of bigotry and transphobia. I see women being pushed, hit and jostled by angry TRA's as they try and speak about women's issues. I see women being threatend with death threats and rape by TRA's for daring not to toe the party line. I see women loosing their careers because they believe that biological sex is real.

I think as a society we have become bewitched and bewildered by the trans phenomenon. Some political parties have embraced the cause almost to the exclusion of other societal problems. At times there is a Kafkaesque quality to it all. Our local online council meetings been reduced to a farce as committees, who have worked together for years, have started asking each other what their pronouns are and falling over each other to express their support of transpeople. The main issue on the agenda, road sweeping or emptying bins or whatever gets sidelined. That doesn't sound as if there's an anti trans movement in my local council and I suspect up and down the land there are similar zoom meetings going on doing exactly the same thing.

Expressing concern and asking questions is not the same as anti trans.

Agreed, and it is ironic that those who accept that people can identify into a different sex won’t accept that those of us identifying as non- transphobic are telling the truth.

Again I am really sorry but you are talking in sexist cliches. Boys activities. Would you be able to describe what that means.

By the way the DFE has ruled that any teaching that includes sexist references to clothes activities etc must not be taught.
Charities such as mermaids are currently distancing themselves as fast as possible from those type of statements.

GagaJo

*The patriarchy will be laughing up its collective sleeve at the idea that women claiming to be feminists are insisting on the right of men to barge into female spaces and be accepted as women.* I don't think it is actually. I think the patriarchy thinks trans people are freaks and are on the same side as you, seeing them as a threat, dehumanising them and not accepting them.

I see your comment was directed at Doodledog. Initially I’d seen it as another offensive, dismissive comment directed at anyone who disagrees with you on the trans subject Gaga.
I may be wrong but doesn’t your post contravene Gransnet guidelines.
It’s certainly totally inaccurate and very rude. It’s a personal attack in Doodle and by association most other contributors to this thread.

Galaxy

Again I am really sorry but you are talking in sexist cliches. Boys activities. Would you be able to describe what that means.

Who is talking in sexist cliches?

(And thank you, Iam64.)

Trisher used the descriptor boys activities, I am fascinated to know what boys activities are. I have seen an interest in insects as included in so called boys activities! It's always useful for them to be described as it shines a light on the sexism.

The focus on gender specific clothes, leg shaving, boys toys etc etc is weird, on a thread aimed at discussing what feminism is at this point in its history.

Sorry Doodledog, I didn't mean YOU were those things, I think the patriarchy thinks trans people are freaks and are on the same side as you, seeing them as a threat, dehumanising them and not accepting them.. I meant to describe the way the patriarchy, or the bog standard, on the street male, and the male dominated system views them.

That is a highly emotive speech Petunia. 'shouted down', 'death threats', 'bewitched'. We are engaging in a rational discussion about a range of opinions on the same issue. Any issue will have people with different perspectives. If a student in my class asks me to call them, 'they' instead of he or she, it is SUCH a small thing. Half the time I will forget and I will apologise to them. No different to the girl a couple of years ago had changed her name.

Please see my comment above Iam64. But just to be on the safe side, I will report my own comment, asking if it contravenes GN guide lines.

Oh, no need for reporting! We've had enough of that lately, and I'm sure we are all robust enough not to need moderator intervention.

I do not see transpeople as freaks, however, and I do find the idea that I might both offensive and a massive leap of logic from what I said. Nor am I on the side of the patriarchy, and I would be interested to see why you think this is the case.

The phrases petunia refers are not about this thread, but about the wider world, where those expressing concerns are called TERFS, no-platformed, ridiculed and threatened.

I agree that pronouns are very small things, and regularly use ones which have been changed from the original - again, if and when I remember. I find it a bit strange, as pronouns are not used to refer to people directly, and the desire to tell people how to refer to them when they are not there always seems odd to me, but as you say, it is a small thing, and I do my best to get it right.

That is very far from the point that people are making here, though. It does seem that you are missing our points by a country mile.

As an English teacher, I am embarrassed that I am not explaining myself in plain and clear English. I'll have another go, but please understand, I am not holding anyone on this forum to account.

I think the anti-trans movement (NOT us on here, WE are just discussing the issue. I mean the ACTUAL political protest) is a lot more aligned with the patriarchy than they like to let on. As I said above, the patriarchy I am sure, find those who do not easily fit into their binary system freakish. They may go along with the current political tide (a bit like the government having to appear to support the NHS at the moment) but really, the whole of the patriarchal system functions on the basis of binary gender opposites. It is part of how they maintain their 'men on top' power.

As I said above, if you ask the average man on the street what he thinks of a transwoman, he will NOT respond in a 'woke' way. In the same way that in the past, transwomen (because transpeople have always been there, just under cover a lot of the time) risked death if they did not manage to 'pass'.

Therefore, the subsection of feminists that are anti trans (again, let me state, we are having an exchange of opinion, I am not applying this to anyone on here) are actually helping to shore up the patriarchy's system of power, by insisting biology and gender cannot be expressed in many different acceptable ways.

The more people with differences of sex / gender / sexuality are quietly integrated into everyday life, the more the walls of 'the norm' (is that a 1984 quote?) will be broken down and we will have many more shades of sex & gender expression, in the way we are starting to get a much greater variety of expressions of sexuality.

Gaga,” the subsection of feminists that are anti trans” you speak of, who are they?
Are these feminists really anti trans. Could they be described as standing up for women and questioning a brand new belief system. Asking difficult questions doesn't mean you are totally opposed to something.
Before all those red lines are crossed, I personally want to know how does this affect women and will it compromise their safety.

Yes, I do believe they see themselves as challenging a new belief system. But it really isn't a new system. It has always existed (just as with homosexuality, despite what Queen Victoria believed) and it is now that it is becoming more public.

People felt exactly this way when gay liberation began, during the civil rights movement.

Questioning is fine.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen the (treading VERY carefully again, let me know if I have failed!) extremity of feeling about trans issues on Mumsnet?

I responded to that question earlier gagajo. MM is much more feminist than GN so it centres women. It provided unending support to Keira Bell and to others like her, it provides a safe place for transwidows and for parents of gender non conforming children.

Yes and I think all of the above are great. But anytime on there that anyone tries to add a different perspective, they are hounded.

I think we are talking about more than just feminism. I have always been feminist and have been both castigated and celebrated for it. So there is space within feminist to be accepting of trans individual and it is probably only in the last ten years or so that the feminist anti trans subsect has developed.