can we discuss feminism please

Lizbethan, I actually agree with some of what you have written in your last comment, there should be no diminishment of caring roles in society, whether that be as employment or in the home. However, as a feminist I do take umbrage at calling this the defeminisation of society.
The construct of gender roles is exactly that a social construct. Built up over generations of people being slotted into roles that are seen as either masculine or feminine - when the reality is that with the exception of giving birth and breast feeding, there is very little in this world that cannot be achieved by any human. Gender does not and should not matter in most walks of life.
I believe in equality passionately, but until people are born into the world and given the same opportunities then it is a pipe dream (at least for my generation).
I agree with other posters who have said that education is key.
As a wee aside, I remember in 2016 when Trump was elected in the US getting a call from my sons Primary School (he was only about 8) as he’d decided to educate his class on the meaning of misogyny due to my ranting at the news before he left that morning. I take that as a proud mum moment raising a feminist boy!

"CHEST feeding" you are joking, aren't you?!!!! A breast is a breast. A chest is a chest.
Pregnant "PEOPLE" - HAHA ?
WOMEN, female humans can be pregnant. MALE humans can't be pregnant. Therefore it is correct to refer to a pregnant woman as just that - a pregnant woman!

Claresc0tt - is that a reaction to my comment?

Probably if you were the one that said these things

I didn’t - and tbh I haven’t seen anyone else say them either. Maybe reread the comments?

??? re above. Come on ladies let's not get heated. One thing for sure, men wouldn't be having this conversation or alternative this long.
We're all different every single human being. That's what matters to me.
I have mainly female hormones in my female body. I'm a Gran and proud of the role in life I play.

So Lolo81

Why are our prisons 95% male?

Feminism is about equality. Equal pay, equal opportunities, the absence of oppression or exploitation of women and girls.
Seriously, that four pages can be taken up by some women defending the right of men to harass and humiliate girl children is grim.
The U.K. has a legal framework that should ensure equality. Two women are killed each week by men, usually men they have shared their lives with. Domestic abuse has risen during lockdown
Choking of women during sex, “rough sex” leading to death has been claimed by male partners to be consensual and deaths accidental.
Just where has feminism gone too far?

Lucretzia - I genuinely do not understand your question? Do you mean why are 95% of prisoners male? If so, I’d imagine the men in prison broke the law. As to what that has to do with equality and feminism, there is a massive link between poverty and crime, and further within that there is a link between gender stereotypes in impoverished areas which can and do mean that boys in those circumstances don’t have the same chances in life as those with middle class incomes.
So to link back to my point- society has a lot to answer for. In an ideal world we’d all be equal, but that’s not our reality. To gain equality for every person society would have to change massively.

Of course caring roles should not be diminished in society and yet that is exactly what patriachy has been doing to women for centuries. A capitalist economy only recognises acheivement by its financial value and there is no financial reward for having or raising children. It's the reason some people have suggested there should be a wage for a parent raising children or for someone who does the housework and some in the women's movement campaign for this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wages_for_housework

There are a few posts about how some women were raised to be equals, so was I and yet I realised that that equality was not reflcted in wider society, and still isn't.

I was raised to be equal but certainly didn't find that equality either at school or through the early part of my working life. I remember a job interview as a newly married 21 year old in 1976 when I was asked by two middle aged men if I was planning a family anytime soon as if so they would not be offering me the position. In my thirties I complained that a Male colleague earned more than me in the same position and was told he had a family to provide for. I had a husband and 3 children by then. Thankfully legislation has changed this for the better

Although in law we have equality, in reality many women make choices that limit their progress and financial security.

I'm thinking here of young mothers. How many make the decision to stay at home until their children are at school or work part time. Although maternity provision has improved dramatically, there comes a point where choices have to be made. These are decisions that will impact on their lives forever in terms of income, progression and ultimately pensions. Often that decision is made for the woman to give up work/go part time for sound and sensible reasons but in the long term, that individual woman bears the brunt of the financial insecurity. And how may young women find themselves in poverty when relationships break down.

Yet what is the answer? To service a mortgage today often takes two salaries.

Women juggling home and work have been there all the time but society chooses to look away. Can feminism help or is this an issue for society to address?

Feminism is part of society. It’s influence is clear, votes for women, the equal pay and maternity leave legislation. Some women here who dismiss feminism will be happy to benefit from it.
Women don’t “make choices that limit their progress” and leave them in poverty when relationships break down. The reality is those choices are often largely least worst options. Women continue to carry the bulk of the domestic and emotional support of the family. Lockdown seems to have compounded that. We can only keep raising these issues and supporting our sons and daughters in understanding equality leads to better relationships

Actually Bonnie I am not sure it has changed so much. I think it is often done in a much more subtle way but still disadvantages women. I was on an interview panel recently where one of the questions p
would have disadvantaged women much more than men, I had to fight quite hard to stop that question being asked. The rest of the panel would have gone along with it, and yes the interviewees could have complained but in reality most women wouldnt because it makes you look 'difficult'.

Good point Iam64. Particularly the bit about lock down. Women are often getting the triple shift here-trying to work from home, trying to home school and trying to keep the show on the road.

Can I just say though, you commented on two parts of my post as if they were together and a criticism.

“make choices that limit their progress” and “leave them in poverty when relationships break down”.

Perhaps I should have said women are compelled to make choices. I don't think I meant they make those choices as easily. Those choices are always a compromise. How many women feel guilt whatever their choice? Whatever they choose there are consequences, financial and emotional.

Even today, in our enlightened times, the woman bears the brunt. A quick glance at the school gate(pre covid) will show mainly women collecting children(or grandparents). Although they exist, not many men adjust their working lives to accommodate childcare quite as much as women. Many men certainly cant do this because of the work they do.

As for leaving women in poverty, survey after survey suggests that single parent families (mainly women) are some of the poorest in our society. So many women are left in dire straights without financial resources when trying to raise children alone. I'm sure that the majority of women didn't walk into motherhood with the view that they would be left to cope alone, but sadly it happens.

Petunia, sorry if I responded defensively. I m in agreement with the comments you just made. Choices are constrained by reality.

I would welcome a specific section to discuss our feminist responses to our historical and ongoing experiences.
Many of us gave our time and energy to creating change for ourselves and future generations and whilst much of that stands some of it is being needlessly, in my opinion, thrown away.

P.s. As well as equality, I think we need equity.

One of the things which I learned a couple of years ago when I attended an event was the number of women who are still losing their job when they become pregnant. Theoretically of course they have legal protection so this shouldn't happen and yet it is common. Not just with low paid workers but with high flyers in corporate firms. The process seems to involve sacking a woman when she is most unlikely to fight back, partly because of her professional reputation and partly because the time frame for legal action is very tight and she is about to have a baby. The organisation ^Pregnant then Screwed is trying to extend the time. There is a petition to make it 6 months instead ofthe current 3. If you believe in feminism and want to support young pregnant women please sign www.change.org/p/greg-clark-mp-give-new-and-expectant-mothers-six-months-to-pursue-discrimination-claims

Reading so many GN threads about their working, have it all DDs it appears that Feminism has skipped a generation, everyone’s a feminist until the DDs want their children looking after.
Grans then drop everything and become nurse maids who are threatened with estrangement if they fail to comply with the Feminism that they taught their daughters.

Feminism starts at home and should be practised , not shoved into a cupboard when the Feminist Daughter has a hissy fit.

I am deeply concerned about governments conflating gender with sex. I believe it is possible to present as what ever gender you wish however you cannot change your sex, that is science. One objection I have is about female only spaces being lost. My grandmothers generation had to fight for ‘Ladies’ public toilets. Can you imagine trying to organise a few hours away from home without toilet facilities. Freedom of movement in a safe environment has not yet been achieved however we need as a basic a place of safety to take down our pants to pee! My grandmothers generation did not want to use the ‘Gents’ because they wanted privacy, dignity and safety. Add to that hygiene, it was and prob still is the case that we are the ones who clean household toilets so we know the score. I don’t want to have to consider male bodies in ‘Ladies’ toilets even if that body is presenting in a dress or dungarees. Unisex toilets are not the answer for meeting people’s needs way back when and still isn’t.
Does anyone remember the ‘Ladies’ waiting rooms in train stations?

I am not sure what estrangement is to do with feminism but to be honest most problems are usually laid at the door of feminism so it's just same old same old.
I agree MBHP I have found listening to womens experiences very interesting and moving.

I refuse to get into this argument once again. It's something which is splitting feminists everywhere. It isn't an issue currently blighting the lives of most women (and yes I know there are women who are suffering male violence) There are more women being dismissed from jobs, trying to find adequate childcare and trying to get through the covid epidemic still able to pay theiir bills. So lets concentrate on the real issues and leave the trans debate, which will in any case work itself out eventually, for other threads.

By the way MBHP1 it wasn't just our grandmothers who fought for public loos. My mother in the late 1950s wrote a letter to "She" magazine about the lack of women's toilets. She was at the time one of the few women travelling salespeople. It was published and they did an investigation counting the number of loos and asking for more women's loos because hey were few and far between.

Iam64. Thank you for your comment. The written word on a forum such as this can sometimes seem a little harsh when that wasn't the intention. Add to that auto correct and lock down brain mush and its a miracle we can all be civil. Ha ha.

The subject of modern feminism interests me. Trisher has alluded to different strands of feminism. Makes sense in one way but in another, it dilutes the core aims of the old style feminism.

There have been many posts accepting that we have equality in law but reality is somewhat different. I would be interested to hear what the modern feminist movement has to say about this.