Illegal migrants’ amnesty vaccine.

suziewoozie I assume you have never come across irony or sarcasm because that is how Urmstongrans deleted post which you have quoted appears to me.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Some of your posts are coming across as bullying and hectoring suziewoozie. There is room for all opinions and thoughts on this subject, and whilst I agree with essence of what you say, bullying them into silence isn't the way to get your opinion across.

suziewoozie

Here it is Urm

By Urmstongran on Mon 08-Feb-21 21:16:16
Maybe a vaccination hub for illegals? Just line up folks....
'Ask us no questions and we'll tell you no lies'?

Thank you sw.

I’m actually shocked at myself. Truly.
I apologise unreservedly for causing offence. I won’t ever use that word again. I will say ‘undocumented migrants’ as PippaZ suggested.

And sw I’m sorry I doubted you. When I did you called me out for lying. No wonder you were furious with me. You were right all along and I was so awfully wrong.

Please accept my sincerest apology?

Suziewoozie I didn’t imply you are a liar. I said ‘perhaps Urms quoted someone else. She seems as surprised as I am. She has also said that if she said it she’ll apologise.
I don’t see Urms as a racist and she is usually very calm in her debate.
I also enjoy your debate suziewoozie and apologise if you thought I was implying that you lied. I wasn’t.
Do we all agree that a sincere amnesty would be the best course for all of us?

What concerns me is that they're probably working cash in hand, how much tax are we missing out on?

I wouldn't let that worry you in the slightest. If they are spending what they earn in the UK the government will eventually get it all back via taxation. Either directly through VAT or via the income tax paid by the people whose wages are paid by virtue of people buying products.

I know it's galling, but it'll get back to the Treasury in the end. Everything is taxed one way or another.

It's a different matter if they are sending money to dependents abroad. Then it's lost to the UK.

As far as the issue being debated is concerned, of course they should be vaccinated if at all possible.

Good post MaizieD.

Sorry, crossed again.

Urmstongran gracious and polite as always.

If they are spending what they earn in the UK the government will eventually get it all back via taxation

But some don’t MaizieD. It has been well documented that some undocumented migrants send money ‘home’. In fact there was a programme on the television recently illustrating how some poor families abroad rely very heavily on money being sent to them from the UK. In fact, weren’t some of those 39 smuggled people (who died in the back of a container) coming here to earn better money - one wanted to work in a nail bar - to clear their family debts at home?

Also, I think that’s why some try to live frugally, bunking up several to a room on mattresses, to cut down on expenses?

It really is a shocking mess. And a terrible life. But as long as it’s not sorted out it will continue.

All countries must be having to deal with money leaving the country. It has always happened to us with people coming from the EU, working very hard and then going home and taking the money with them. They will always spend some but not necessarily all. If it had been a big problem then governments would limit the amount taken or sent out of the country and I can't think of any country that does - Iran perhaps but I'm afraid I wouldn't know of any others - or even if that's correct.

Perhaps it isn't enough for governments to worry about?

The whole grey economy needs to be sorted out whether it’s undocumented migrants or the local odd job man

Peanuts compared to the tax avoidance and evasion being carried out by big business and wealthy individuals.

The government is more than aware of the grey economy, but it won’t tackle it because these people serve a purpose.

Exactly Whitewavemark2, but THEY are not to be questioned. I read today, that all the deals thrown to Tory friends, family and contacts since the beginning of covid amounts to over 2 billion.

Whitewavemark2

Peanuts compared to the tax avoidance and evasion being carried out by big business and wealthy individuals.

Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion are two different things............one is illegal the other immoral.

All tax avoidance is wrong, whoever is doing the avoiding.

None of it is right though WW although I agree with you. Actually I dare say we’re not the only country.

Post Covid, so many countries will be scrutinising their decimated economies and seeing how they can increase revenue.

Going back to my OP though....
Any suggestions as to how undocumented migrants could be encouraged to take up the vaccine?

Do the government really mean a full amnesty anyway or do they just mean ‘we won’t try to track you if you have it?’.

Urmstongran all in the UK need to be vaccinated when it is their cohorts turn, (underlying health exemptions accepted)

If the Government had put out a statement saying undocumented/unregistered migrants will not be offered the vaccine there would be extremely vociferous complaints from many.

I think the government has given up with the small scale grey economy. The first £1000 of online sales doesn't even have to be declared, so some EBay sellers are earning a bit of pocket money tax free.

Income tax only makes up about 25% of the Treasury's income. Most of its income is from indirect taxes.

Until the 2019-2020 tax year I hadn't paid any income tax for three years - I'm in the UK perfectly legally, but I genuinely had earnings below the threshold for income tax.

Nevertheless, I paid plenty in indirect taxes. Most of my money goes on "essentials", such as my rent and utilities. I assume my landlord pays tax on my rent, Tesco pays tax on its business and its employees pay tax, as do the growers of the food I've bought and the people who produce any packaging. I pay council tax. Even if some immigrants aren't registered for council tax, their landlords will be and the amount will have been factored into their rent ... and so it goes on. Even people who don't pay income tax have to use goods and services which have been taxed at some stage.

If I were undocumented and unregistered, I would be very wary of any amnesty offered. Not so long ago, one of the charities for the homeless reported unregistered immigrants to the Home Office.

I doubt if many will take up the offer because their name and address will have to be registered to ensure notification of a second dose.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

Peanuts compared to the tax avoidance and evasion being carried out by big business and wealthy individuals.

Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion are two different things............one is illegal the other immoral.

All tax avoidance is wrong, whoever is doing the avoiding.

I think that the level of the immorality is something else.

Most of those who you call part of the grey economy, will be carrying out unskilled low paid work, whose income will be almost entirely spent in the wider economy. They will use every penny to live and survive.

The tax avoiders and evaders of the wealthy classes will put all their wealth off shore and use it to contribute very little if anything to the economy.

Strictly both types of illegality is criminal activity, but one of borne out of survival the other out of pure greed.

The taxes on goods and services tend to be the least progressive so, on a very low income, you can be paying a higher pecentage overall than someone who is very rich.

As for ensuring everyone that can be and wants to be is vacinated, there are still the wonderful people who run soup kitchens and go out to look out for those living rough (we should have continued the everybody in scheme but that's another thread). If vacination was offered along side them, to anyone who wanted it, you would probably pick quite a lot of extra people who are vulnerable. Some of them might well have fallen through the system.

Isn’t it good that the conversation has lost its racist undertones?

PippaZ people who run outreach programmes will in all probability know who/where the vulnerable are, if they were to have a trained vaccinator with them on occasions it could work.