Feeling sorry for men

If you are calling me bitter -

Yes, I am bitter that women have been educated since childhood to eat their feelings and think how it affect others first while now men, who may be seeing the tip of the iceberg, are crying wolf - " this is so hard, I have no idea how not to offend people, wah wah wah"

Crybabies...

I am more bitter that it is women who perpetuate this disfunction and keep putting other women down vs empower them

Sarah1954

A man on my role says something- he is generally not questioned about it

A woman? I say the same thing a man says and it is questioned, negotiated and discussed to death, it is exhausting

Most of my colleagues trust me and the conversation is much more organic, collaborative and pleasant, we learn from each other and are happy to exchange ideas.
I have one or two bad apples that just plain refuse to do anything I ask (company policies)

To be clear, I dont mind being challenged and questioned at all, it is the fact that having ovaries vs a penis makes me "untrustworthy and unsuitable to tell them what to do"

Years ago my mam was a nurse. One night a Dr tried to lock her in the linen cupboard with him. Bad move. My mam kneed him in the privates and reported him to her superiors. No one tried that again with her or any of the student nurses. My mam is gone now but she was always my hero. A small woman in stature but she always stood up for herself and others.

Flirtation is appropriate. Trying to engage someone who CLEARLY isn't interested isn't flirting, it is harrassment.

I appreciate that at times, flirtation may be attempted and rebuffed. At which point, it should stop.

Unwanted attention is harrassment. It isn't bitter to say that. Just realistic.

It’s not just what is said it’s also how it is said, the tone of voice, body language etc. Most women know when something else is meant. Opening doors for another is a common courtesy that women and men should do anyway. Some men use this as an example to excuse their bad behaviour in other ways. It’s a poor excuse though as so many doors in public open automatically these days!

Women on here (and elsewhere) are the mothers and grandmothers of these men.
Has something gone horribly wrong?
I hope that none of my DS or DGS would ever behave inappropriately towards women.

Our MSP is a woman, a lawyer, who advocates Men's Sheds. She thinks they are a marvellous thing for men.
Are they?
It sounds like turning the clock back and the next thing will be Women's Kitchens
what do you think?
www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/what-we-do/community-development/mens-sheds/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkN6EBhBNEiwADVfyaxlsRhwarmbxXM7dSJgBWCJHpNjmTX7BUmqkIrnfmm3RkMipgG_MNRoCZhA

They are a good idea for men if women's sheds are also a good idea for women

Hollysteers
I completely agree we have had so many laughs at work over the years, a bit of flirting, nothing more.
The reps were always good for a laugh, and so were a lot of our customers.
Totally different times now, I think we’ve chucked the baby out with the bath water, yes we’ve probably got rid of some of the more sleazy talk, but mostly it was just grown up people brightening up their day with a few laughs.

I'm so angry about that "bitter" comment that I can't even construct a sensible post. Bitter because we don't care one iota what a person we don't know thinks of us?

Jesus Mary and Joseph and the wee donkey....

Grammaretto

Women on here (and elsewhere) are the mothers and grandmothers of these men.
Has something gone horribly wrong?
I hope that none of my DS or DGS would ever behave inappropriately towards women.

Our MSP is a woman, a lawyer, who advocates Men's Sheds. She thinks they are a marvellous thing for men.
Are they?
It sounds like turning the clock back and the next thing will be Women's Kitchens
what do you think?
www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/what-we-do/community-development/mens-sheds/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkN6EBhBNEiwADVfyaxlsRhwarmbxXM7dSJgBWCJHpNjmTX7BUmqkIrnfmm3RkMipgG_MNRoCZhA

I think you need to find out more about what the Men's Sheds movement is all about. Sorry, still angry, but not at you.....

A movement that allows often older men to mix and network in an environment that feels comfortable for them and provide a safe space for them to express themselves and get over some of their problems. Been invaluable for several men I know.

I have come into contact with ‘men’s Sheds’ through work. I think they’re pretty harmless.

Sara1954

Loislovesstewie
We work in a company in which almost all our customers are male.
When someone is approached by our tiny, blonde daughter, they often say ‘can I speak to one of the chaps love’ she smiles, ‘yes of course’
So one of our male colleagues takes over, and says, ‘oh I’ll just get S—— she knows more about this’
She is incredibly knowledgable, and helpful, just has a job getting anyone to believe it.
To be fair to our regulars, they’re happy to be told what’s what by her.

BTW I was saying I love the fact that your daughter is knowledgable and that your regulars are happy with her. I do find it sad that we are still in the ludicrous situation that women apparently know nothing. When I started out many years ago I was told by customers (local government) that they didn't want to be told what to do' by a slip of a girl'. I told them that this slip of a girl was the one who could help them. I find it stupid that 45 years later the same applies.

Men's sheds have been really successful at providing a social outlet and purpose for mainly older retired men.
There were many similar activities for women but not so much for men.
Not sure why anyone would object to that.
Also not sure how it relates to OP question.

And, no, I dont feel sorry for men
I feel this poor men thing is a furphy, I don't see why men can't avoid making inappropriate comments, it isn't hard.
And it isn't harder for men than women.

Loislovesstewie
I know, she takes it in her stride, she usually has the last laugh after all.
But it is annoying, and it’s not just older men, it’s young men too, who should bloody well know better.

I feel that I need to explain about the knickers situation. We share a communal garden and therefore share clothes lines and even props. We live in the ground floor flat and our neighbour lives above us. We can see the clothes lines from our back kitchen. She can't see them from hers without climbing onto her sink. DH was being neighbourly and pegging a couple of things back onto the line as the wind had blown them off. One of the things happened to be a pair of knickers. Should he have left them on the ground to get dirty again or get blown away completely? Not very neighbourly.

I dont think anyone objects to mens sheds or support groups specifically for men around mental health for example. I would actively support and donate to them.

Why differentiate outerwear from underwear?

If it is out in the communal property, everything hanging there is fair game for me

I would support and donate to men's sheds as well. Anything to help and promote mental health issues.

'Just because one man behaves in this way doesn't mean all would if they could. You wouldn't group let's say Goldfish and sharks under the heading 'dangerous' and treat both accordingly would you? I don't like any group being tarred with the same brush.'
Well, I'd compare goldfish with goldfish and sharks with sharks. Just cos they are both fish doesn't mean that we have tanks full of sharks in our living rooms or in our garden pond. Mice and men are both mammals, not sure anyone has been sexually assaulted by a mouse, and men do not live in holes in our skirting boards, neither do the large mammals the whales.
There is a huge difference between saying to a stranger whose coat is a beautiful purple velvet Ooh I do love your coat, and it really suits you, or, gosh your rainbow hair is amazing, and a man creepily commenting on a woman's clothing. I've had men compliment me on something I've been wearing, something that I love that's a bit unusual that I don't often wear and that's fine. And women too, glad to know that others like the dress or whatever. Just say thanks, it's my favourite, or my favourite colour, or whatever, or just thanks
What I haven't appreciated for example, was being told, gosh you look smart, in a tone of surprise, by someone with whom I'd stayed on several occasions, casually dressing, as I was the weekend. This time I'd asked if I could pop in and say hello [as always invited to] on my way back from a formal occasion where smart dress was de rigueur, actually she realised she had implied that I was usually a scruffbag, and apologised. Now had she just said I do like your suit, that would have been ok,
If a person had been talking about my latest diet or exercise to you, or just saying that she was going to weight watchers, then maybe, as she has brought it up with you in the past, you could say that you've noticed she's lost weight, as you knew from her that she was trying to do that, but to say it out of the blue, it could be anything, you could be ill, you could be depressed and not eating, that is not something to compliment someone on. If someone was concerned that you might be ill then you might speak to them differently, but always in a way that left it open for the other person not to reveal anything they were not ready to tell another person.
Where I wonder would a lost child be, you temper your response to the place. And the age of the child,. It would be different if the child was in a supermarket, to a child outside in a shopping mall, or wandering around near a road, near a pond or other dangerous place or after dark. Are there any other people around? If you fear harm arising to the child if left where the child is you need to protect the child from that harm. But nowadays most of us carry a mobile phone, keep an eye on the child and ring the non-emergency number. Don't always assume that the parents know the child is missing, there was a sad fatality a few months ago where the child had got up and gone out into the street and everyone thought he was in bed, sadly he got knocked down and died. So many people saying why didn't the parents know where he was, well most of us if we last saw our child in bed would assume that that's where he was.
We should all be careful what we say to others, and if we inadvertently upset someone however inadvertently the upset was.
Knickers on the floor under the washing line? Again, will they fly away and be lost if no one picks them up - ok, but it Wouldnt just be knickers would it, probably, it might be tee shirts or leggings or towels. if they were picked up alongside the other items it would probably be ok, and you might let the person know that their washing nearly blew into the next parish, if it was just breezy and no such danger existed, maybe just leave them, intervention probably not needed. Would you do it? If not then that's probably the answer for your husband. Are you or your husband on good enough terms that the knickerowner might pop round and pick up your husband's undercrackers if they blew off the line? I'd say no hard and fast rule here. Unless of course your husband was standing on tiptoe to look at the washing line, that would be really creepy

Well I am sorry AussieNanna if you think this is off topic but for me it is all about accepting that our roles are merging and if we want gender equality we must look at why we need to treat men differently from women. Why do we have separate toilets and segregated schools, all these things which emphasise our differences.
Ofcourse I think MrVampire should have pegged the knickers back on the line. Common sense.

I don't think the personal trainer should have made comments about someones' body shape - if indeed he did. Not because he is a man particularly but because it is rude.

I read and asked about the men's sheds and apparently they are open to women but women don't go.
I would be perfectly happy if men came to our yarn group. The other groups I am in, yoga, gardening, walking, language class, choirs and so on, are open to all and I wouldn't go if they weren't .

'I'm not saying it's OK for men to harass women or make obvious sexual comments etc. but most men are just trying to be polite (as they were taught to be when growing up). The majority of men are not sexual predators or women beater, but it seems that today all get tarred with the same brush.'

A domestic abuser is not that likely to target random women in the street, his interest is in abusing members of his family or an ex-partner. In fact a man is more likely to be killed by another man
In a recent survey of over 22,000 women, by Victim Focus '99.7% of our sample had been repeatedly subjected to violence including assaults, harassment and rape.

Only 0.3% of women had only been subjected to one violent incident or less.

Our initial findings in this report suggest that current statistics of the prevalence of violence against women have been underestimated for decades, and instead, it is likely that every woman and girl will be subjected to violence, abuse, rape or harassment. In the vast majority of cases reported here, women were subjected to multiple crimes and the perpetrators were overwhelmingly male
If almost every woman had been bitten by a dog or knew a woman that had been bitten by a dog it would be unwise to assume that the dog they were approached by was friendly. Most dogs are friendly but even though few people are bitten by dogs we are very careful with a strange dog

OP having explained the situation, he was right to pick them up, hadn't seen your message when I posted

I really don't thing most mothers are to blame for men behaving badly towards women. We live in a heavily patriarchal society. Our political leader uses and discards women. We have multiple examples in the public eye of boorish male behaviour. Even rapists are rarely convicted.

Our whole society is designed to benefit men, to the detriment of women. Feminism has been trying to change that, but until good men start to stand up to abusers, nothing will change.

Not for nothing did Obama say, 'This is what a feminist looks like.'

I wonder if Michelle Obama would see him as a feminist. I would be interested in her answer to that. I think there are sone interesting undertones in her book.
I think there are issues with flirtation and relationships in the workplace if there are power differences. I think its often the woman who ends up having to leave etc if things go wrong.

I am determined to spell some as sone today.