Supply chain and HGD shortages

Yes, they managed during the Black Death as well, when things were far worse.

There are very few people around now who remember the war and its aftermath. All if us go on the experience of our own lifetime and circumstances.

Most people have not experienced shortages before. They have grown up with everything they want in the shops all the time. Want strawberries for Christmas lunch - they are there in abundance. It is therefore a very real shock when, say, strawberries are in short supply in summer because there are no pickers to pick them or lorries to transport them.

md68 yes, vans can be used to deliver small things, in small batches but, even small things, if needed in 100,000s and millions can be moved more quickly and efficiently by one big lorry than 20 vans adding to the congestion that we are seeing every day, with drivers only accustomed to driving locally and nowhere in their van for them to sleep if they travel any distance.

As for shortages, people managed during/after the war and things were much worse then, so we just need to stop bleating

Ah, the war. It wasn't so bad was it? Nobody died.

Oh, hang on.....

Things like blood test tubes/flu vaccines etc can be delivered in vans etc. No need for hgv drivers.

... and yet Amazon can deliver stuff we want, but don't necessarily need, the very next day!
Perhaps they could gain some Brownie points by applying their logistics teams to collecting/delivering flu vaccines/etc

As for shortages, people managed during/after the war and things were much worse then, so we just need to stop bleating and get on with it until our country (which others revere enough to cross the channel in flimsy boats to reach) is back on it's feet again.

Rosina

There are probably a thousand different opinions about this situation - but I also can't understand, like several other posters, why some are saying that drivers have gone home because we 'voted to say we didn't want EU people here'. I don't remember that being as issue at all - we thrive on tourism and foreign visitors, and have always depended upon foreign workers for hospitals, transport, fruit picking etc. It was never suggested that workers should go home and never come back.

Rosina
What newspapers were you reading in 2016? UK media coverage was was mostly saying how the immigrants were a liability, taking jobs, housing, burdening the NHS.etc.

DD works for the NHS and says many European workers left their jobs there because of the atmosphere regarding the vote. You may not have felt it but they, as the foreigners did. They went back to their home countries where they felt more comfortable. Why should they go back to the UK and what has the UK to offer that they don’t have now, there is no free movement of workers?

They were short staffed in hospitals before Covid, now it is worse.

25Avalon, That is what they say, but there are exceptions all the time, plus people drop out.

My chance contacts with the aristocracy has always been the ones that are just like us; teachers in the state sector with children in state schools or retired and living in an ordinary village house. Neither used their title and not many knew they had them.

You have to have your name down at birth for Eton. It is not just money but a way of life. Casdon summed it up.

25Avalon, but it is the presence of money that makes the difference anyone can buy themselves into Eton, or any top school if they want their child to go their, do not confuse the past with the present. If you are rich and aristocratic the world is your oyster, ditto if you are Russian Oligarch, Middle Eastern oil mogul or wealthy barrow boy.

if you do not have money it is mixing in with the rest of us. aristo or barrow boy.

It is money makes the world go round, old or new, no one examines your family history before accepting your money.

There are still monied people out there who believe in philanthropy, thank goodness. A family local to me are EXTREMELY generous on the quiet and invest a lot in people and their communities*

*and that doesn't necessarily fall under throwing money at projects, it is well thought out and forward thinking

Avalon has actually touched on something really important in a round about way. There are educational charities that exist in many developing countries (and further) designed to educate and KEEP their own work forces in their own country. Maybe we need to be doing that here too.

It is here as well Casdon.

I don’t think that’s the norm, certainly not where I live. Being from an aristocratic or historically wealthy family confers benefits on current generations in terms of opportunity, jobs, housing and status in the community. I’d be very surprised if that’s not the case elsewhere.

No more Eton, no aristocracy, really! Not as bad but they are still out there.

I live in a rural area. There are wealthy landowners, some aristocratic, some not. All their advantages and priveleges come because they have a lot of money not bcause of their origins.

I know a member of the aristocracy whose estate consists of the cottage he lives in. No money, no privileges or power, other than those earned by a lifetime of service to the community.

I don’t agree with you about class Monica, it’s still live and kicking. It’s more obvious to those of us in rural areas I suspect.

No mention of class at all. The children of poor aristocrats, and there are plenty whose estates disappeared decades ago and now drive buses, can do what everyone else at their state school are doing. the children of wealthy men who started out selling goods on market stalls can pay their children to stay at school and do nothing.

Class is a phantom of the media. Doesn't exist. All that matters these days is how much money you have, especially if you are very rich and foreign.

^ How do we get people here to work at unpopular jobs^ like HGV driving.
We raise the status of the job for a start. We acknowledge that HGV driving is demanding and skilled, and we reward accordingly. I can't think of many other jobs that take workers away from home and family for periods of time. We show more respect.
We reduce the age to learn. 17 year olds who want to drive an HGV are no less adept and skilful than a university student.
The governement should subsidise their training or offer loans.
The actual long distances and time away could be made more pleasant with designated accommodation and restauration, including gyms for them to work out.
Losing Eastern European drivers has only served to uncover a long standing problem, so we need to to get on it.

Back to the old social classes then. Maybe the Poor Law with dreadful workhouses so you’d rather scrub latrines than end up in one. No mention of the upper classes doing anything.

The solution is one that everyone will be up in arms over. The labour shortage can be met by encouraging everybody here to have more children, reduce the school leaving age to 14 so children will be too uneducated to do anything but menial jobs and pay women to stay at home and breed.

Or we could plan an economy that can sustaining the current population on the current workforce.

I am not sure which would be the most difficult.

Not at all Monica. If you read my previous posts I was pondering how we just keep moving the problem of getting workers down the road. The people who came over on the Windrush solved a problem, but why should their children and grandchildren wish to continue doing those jobs? They are British citizens like the rest of us and shouldn’t have to. So we need to find others to do those jobs mostly from poorer countries. They are not necessarily immigrants, a lot are from Eastern Europe but some have suggested immigrants might be able to do those jobs. I was pointing out the snags. Idk what the answer is. Once immigrants are British Citizens who are we going to get in?

So, if I understand you, 25Avalon, you are suggesting that either we cut all wages for everybody in this country so that we do not attract immigrants, or we reduce the wages for immigrants compared with British citizens, so that they are not attracted here because their wages would be so low. How exactly do you see this working.

the reason so many immigrants head here and not other countries, is not because our streets are paved in gold but because 1) English is now a universal language so the heads of families head for countries where they already have some knowledge of the language

And most importantly because of our reputation as a democratic country where the legal system is fair, the police are not brutal, and, compared with many European countries, all nationalities are treated fairly.

Quite so Casdon. Snag is a decent wage will attract even more from poorer countries to send the money home. I will say that most foreign workers I’ve come across who do this are very hard working. How do we get people here to work as hard at unpopular jobs.

Btw apparently the HGV drivers shortage is further exacerbated by a lack of examiners to test those taking their licence. This is down to the pandemic but poor wages don’t help.

Avalon25 the Afghan migrants are very largely professionals, I don’t think asking them to do the low status jobs in the UK is appropriate, they should be given the appropriate training to do jobs in whatever area their skills lie, just like the other UK citizens which is what they will become. I hope there are doctors and nurses amongst them.

We need to pay everybody in whatever job a decent wage, that’s the only answer.

Whilst everyone is enjoying blaming everything on Brexit, can I just remind you of what happened over the last year and a half. Industry being shut down, people losing their jobs, small businesses being anhialated, borders open, borders closed, flights cancelled, holidays cancelled, GLOBALLY 4.5 million deaths out of a world population of 7 BILLION! Shall I repeat that : 7 BILLION. If people don't start getting some perspective soon then we, as a planetary species, are done for. Period.

I think there was a problem with a tomato crop failure which has added to shortages there. In Southern France unusual weather conditions earlier this year has meant poor crops with a lot of fruit.

Why do we keep bringing in workers who we expect to pay a pittance to? It never solves the problem of shortage of workers long term. In the 60’s we brought in black Jamaicans to do jobs like bus conductors, cleaning and nursing. Why should we expect their children and grandchildren to do the same jobs?They have the right to want to better themselves. So we bring in Eastern European’s to do jobs because they will accept lower wages here to send home where the money is worth more. Now they are less. Who do we bring in now? Some suggest the Afghan and other migrants can do these jobs so let’s welcome them for that purpose. Why should they? And again we are just pushing the problem further down the road.