when gender blinds us to sex

I do think if we are to approach this in any reasonable manner the first thing has to be accurate and unbiased recording and reporting.

How can recording be accurate and unbiased without a definition of what being a woman means? When collecting data for any sort of research all parties have to understand what is meant by all of the terms being used, and agree to use them in the same way.

We have seen what happens on here when people are working to entirely subjective definitions based on things like ‘presentation’ or shared values. Clearly neither of these things would stand up in court (fortunately), so fixed legal definitions need to be found, to cover what is meant by ‘male’, ‘female’, people of either sex who have transitioned to the other gender and people of either sex who identify as the other gender. That way, decisions about things like prison accommodation, access to safe spaces and so on could be made in ways that take account of the differences between those groups, and research into medical and social science disciplines would be far more accurate and unbiased than at present.

On a day to day basis doing so should make little or no difference to the lives of transpeople - I’m not suggesting that there should be any need to declare anything, and the right to privacy should be protected. But on forms, in court (when relevant), or for other official purposes, would it not make sense to make the distinctions clear?

Rosie51

Summerlove As you need a penis to rape, biological women can't rape. I'm assuming you mean biological women have used implements to sexually assault someone. Where are your links to evidence of this, and how many women are guilty of this crime? I would think the number would be vanishingly small.

That’s…not true. Please look into that more. I’ll leave this article with many links to studies for you to peruse.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

The statistics are based on transwomen serving longer sentences being compared to other males also serving longer sentences and to females likewise.
So I don't see any problem with those statistics.
Could you explain where this came from *FarNorth please. None of the statistics I have seen have used any lengths of sentencing. The usual rate of sex offenders isn't even released as sex or gender. The figure being a percentage of the prison population. So at present it is 18% assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/805271/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-q4-2018.pdf

Doodledog... common sense post, totally agree with you.

So summerlove are you saying that because women can rape, it excuses those transwomen who carried out rape as men? Your link was interesting, but it’s a definite side track from the importance of those male rapists claiming to be females being registered as male in terms of crime statistics.

Mollygo the OP says that "in law only men can commit rape".

Disagreeing with that doesn't detract from the issue or excuse criminals.

Mollygo

So summerlove are you saying that because women can rape, it excuses those transwomen who carried out rape as men? Your link was interesting, but it’s a definite side track from the importance of those male rapists claiming to be females being registered as male in terms of crime statistics.

No I’m not. Nor did I.

All I did was challenge “only men can rape”.

Rape is defined as being done with a penis.
Only men/males can do that.

trisher if figures for trans prisoners exclude those on very short sentences doesn't it follow that figures for non trans prisoners also exclude those on very short sentences?
Because that is the MoJ's normal way of recording statistics.
So the stats are comparing like with like.

Still, it could be useful to know whether transpeople get statistically more likely to get long sentences than others. That way, if they are being discriminated against, measures can be taken to prevent it.

We will never know unless these figures are gathered in a meaningful way.

Are statistically more likely

Excellent post Doodledog. The definition of terms and the acceptance of those terms is essential.

The definition of rape in law in this country is very explicit, it requires the use of a penis so generally speaking, a woman as the law stands cannot rape a man or another woman as she doesn't possess a penis.

A woman can sexually assault a man, woman and as awful as it is, a child but she cannot commit rape. A man who presents or identifies as a woman and who has also retained their male genitals can rape all of the aforementioned.

However, a woman who undergoes gender re assignment surgery can have a penile implant to enable 'him' to have and maintain an erection and have penetrative sex so, Summerlove's challenge to the idea that only men can rape is valid IMO.

So sorry Summerlove, you had deviated from the point that in law, only men can rape, because rape is done with a penis. I’m used to reading posts where a deviation is used to minimise the importance of the original post and I thought your post was one of those.
If you want to make a point about the appalling sexual attacks being made by females, why not start a thread about that? It’s certainly important but has nothing to do with rapes by 436 TW when the culprits can use their claimed gender to endanger females further.

What about my post Mollygo? What about a woman who undergoes gender reassignment surgery and has a penile transplant, being able to maintain an erection and have penetrative sex so is therefore physically capable of committing rape?

As the law states that rape requires the use of a penis then it is possible for woman by birth, to commit rape is she's had gender reassignment surgery. I'm saying this based on the fact that regardless of what hormonal treatments and surgical procedures someone goes through, they are always the sex they were born with.

Summerlove in England and Wales the law (I'm not sure about Scottish law, I'd assume it's the same) is rape is the penetration of a vagina, anus or mouth by a penis without the consent of the other party. That means in our courts rape can only be performed by a man. The link you gave is American, so not relevant to the UK, especially when it goes into prison abuses. UK prisons, while far from perfect, are not like some of the privately run institutions in the USA. I do not equate a man feeling forced into sex in a relationship with the forceable rape of a woman. There were no actual figures, just ambiguous percentages and words like 'most' I just cannot believe the statement they make For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Really?

Smileless2012 I'm not sure what the law would make of your artificially constructed penis, because it's not a real penis. Interesting point, but hardly likely to happen in any great numbers because we know the majority of transgender people do not have genital surgery at all.

I agree Rosie just to clarify I don't have an artificially constructed penis but it is an interesting point and shows the complexity of the issue under discussion.

It doesn't have to happen in great numbers does it, if it happened just once, how would the law as it stands deal with it?

The biological sex of offenders needs to be recorded. For example, Women are convicted of shoplifting, not paying tv licences in greater numbers than men are. These are crimes of poverty, compounded often by substance addiction. Women in prison disproportionally have histories of abuse in childhood and adult life. They have m.h problems. We don’t know where trans women are represented in offending behaviour. We need to if alternatives to custody can be expanded.

We imprison far too many people in the UK. The development of alternatives to custody is one step forward two back. The government seems determined to build more prisons rather than plan policy based on research. Early years funding slashed despite the evidence countries that invest in early years have better outcomes across the board. These issues must be relevant to the trans community.

Smileless2012

I agree Rosie just to clarify I don't have an artificially constructed penis but it is an interesting point and shows the complexity of the issue under discussion.

It doesn't have to happen in great numbers does it, if it happened just once, how would the law as it stands deal with it?

Absolutely no idea, and I hope we never have to find out. Maybe I'm naive but I err towards thinking a transman who had gone through such a gruelling procedure wouldn't be the type of person to rape, but that's probably wishful thinking.

I don’t know about that one Smileless2012. Should it then be recorded as rape by a transman, which would mean that those 436 rapes could have been recorded as by transwomen and if a transwoman commits rape, incarceration with females would be aiding and abetting further rapes.
Has it actually happened? Do women say they are men so that they can rape other women in the same way as some men claim they are women so they can get away with raping them?
If so does it make the 436 TW rapes any less serious?

I think it should be reported as rape by a transman Mollygo as that would be the correct definition of the crime and as many of us keep saying, use of language and the definition of terms is extremely important.

As you correctly point out issues are then raised as to where, if this were to happen the perpetrator would be imprisoned.

I'm still falling about laughing at Smileless and her artificially constructed penis! You kept that quiet Smileless!

Shhhhh Chewbacca that was supposed to be our secret

Smileless2012

Shhhhh Chewbacca that was supposed to be our secret

I've just reread your reply Smileless Of course I should have said "the artificially constructed penis" instead of using "your". Sorry to have let the cat out of the bag

FarNorth

Rape is defined as being done with a penis.
Only men/males can do that.

Then the legal definition of rape is wrong. But I suppose that’s another issue altogether.

Women are capable of sexually violating men.