when gender blinds us to sex

Kirkubbin2000 therein lies one of the difficulties. They shouldn’t have to do an examination to find out. But what is the option? Wait until a further crime has been committed whilst in custody or in prison?
Even if it was acceptable to ask are you fully transitioned, would a person necessarily say yes?

I can see your point Doodledog but, in the case of trans people in prison, the Prison Service Transgender Policy Document says:

The primary focus is on individuals who express a consistent desire to live permanently in the gender with which they identify, and which is opposite to the biological sex assigned to them at birth, including those who:
• wish to seek to transition permanently to a new gender
• wish to consistently live in the gender with which they identify but do not seek to have this recognised in law
have gained legal recognition of their new gender.

1.4 Also included in the scope of this framework are those who identify as transgender but do not seek to acquire a new gender.
2 They will be managed in accordance with their legally recognised gender and include those who: • are Intersex or individuals with variations of sex characteristics who are content with their sex assigned at birth; • do not identify with a gender (non-binary); • have an inconsistent gender identity (gender fluid); • are cross dressers (transvestite).

So, anyone with the tackle that enabled them to sexually assault or rape a natal woman in the first place, is perfectly entitled to state that he identifies as a woman and they'll be housed in a British prison alongside other vulnerable natal woman.

Or we could stop pretending that in the vast majority of cases we cant tell peoples sex.

So, anyone with the tackle that enabled them to sexually assault or rape a natal woman in the first place, is perfectly entitled to state that he identifies as a woman and they'll be housed in a British prison alongside other vulnerable natal woman.
Yes, which is why I think it might be a good idea to differentiate between those who have ‘no tackle’ and have taken female hormones, and those who haven’t. I’m sure it’s not as simple as that though, which is why I say ‘might’.

Rosie many years ago. I think in the 1970s there was a case where a woman kidnapped and raped a man.

Some woman kidnapped one of the roving American missionaries we used to get. Mormons? Jehovahs witnesses? She had him tied to a bed and stimulated his penis so it hardened and then mounted him.

I am not sure she was tried for rape, but i think they did imprison her on grounds of kidnap and sexual assault.

They really should not to be in the police force if they dont have the ability to determine sex without examination.

This conundrum is also covered:

Where ‘sex’ cannot be determined, staff must use the best information available, consulting with equality leads as necessary. Staff should avoid asking to see a GRC but instead request sight of a birth certificate as confirmation of legal gender where the person was born in the UK. Someone born abroad who has a UK-issued GRC may not have been able to obtain a new birth certificate in their acquired gender. A GRC is an acceptable form of proof of sex, if produced voluntarily. If an individual cannot produce a birth certificate, and have not chosen to provide a GRC, they may give permission for staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel to confirm that a GRC has been issued. Searching of the person must not be used as a means to determine gender.

Some really interesting contributions to this thread, as with the one that was deleted. Rather than wiping out such an interesting discussion, why not just delete the posts which were offensive?

When crime statistics are being gathered, as has already been said, to not state whether the perpetrators are male or female results in the loss of important data. Data that can be used to find explanations as to why a particular crime is for example more likely to be committed by men than women or vise versa.

When it comes to incarceration the safety and well being of the recently convicted and their fellow inmates should be a top priority.

I agree Rosie that the supposed argument that it "may not be easy to determine sex" is a cop out especially as you've pointed out that physical examinations are carried out anyway and this happens when a prisoner is taken into a prison facility, even when on remand.

I remember that M0nica. It was Joyce McKinney I think?

Yes, that is the one I was thinking of.

Chewbacca

^In England and Wales, almost 57% of trans-identified male inmates have been charged with at^ least one sex offense, compared to 17% of non-trans male inmates, and just 2% of biologically female inmates.

In 2019, Freedom of Information requests made by feminist activists revealed that at least six police forces in the UK had been recording criminals based on self-identified gender rather than sex.

Speaking to The Times after the data was received, Nicola Williams, director of Fair Play for Women, said: “You can’t get much more of a male crime than rape. It would be highly offensive to a woman who was raped to have it written down that her attacker was a female when clearly that was a male with a penis."

I really hope that, this time, the tide is turning and women's safety will no longer be sacrificed on the alter of "inclusivity for everybody, everywhere".

This isn't exactly true. The numbers of transwomen serving prison sentences is not accurately recorded. So although there are 125 transgender people are recorded as serving prisoners and 60 of those are for sex crimes the complete number of transpeople serving prison sentences isn't known, because the numbers serving shorter sentences isn't recorded. As sex crimes tend to attract longer sentences the figures may be quite different.
I do think if we are to approach this in any reasonable manner the first thing has to be accurate and unbiased recording and reporting

This is a link if you want to read about it www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

Cross posts Chewbacca so someone cannot be searched in order to ascertain their gender.

So what happens if they don't have a GRC certificate, or if they have refuse to show it, don't have a copy of their birth certificate and refuse permission to allow staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel for confirmation.

Don't panic, I'm not expecting you to have an answer, just thinking aloud.

Finally Pritti... i agree with you.

I agree trisher that we need unbiased and accurate recording and reporting which is why all crimes, regardless of their severity should have the gender of the perpetrator recorded.

So what happens if they don't have a GRC certificate, or if they have refuse to show it, don't have a copy of their birth certificate and refuse permission to allow staff to check directly with the Gender Recognition Panel for confirmation

The answer seems to be:

Where an individual expresses a view of location that is not consistent with their legally recognised gender, the individual must be asked to provide confirmation of living in the gender with which they identify.

This is for March - May 2018 trisher, I'll have a dig about to see if I can find more up to date stats....

According to the data collection exercise conducted in March - May 2018:
• 44 of the 124 public and private prisons (35%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners.
• There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who had sat a Local Transgender Case Board.
• Of these, 111 reported their legal gender5 as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. When asked about the gender the prisoner identified as, 114 identified as female, 19 as male and 6 did not provide a response

Galaxy

Thank God forcing women who have been raped or assaulted to use she in court about their attacker is further abuse of that woman.

Unfortunately Galaxy the requirement for a natal female victim of rape by a natal male to address that individual in court by his chosen pronouns is enshrined in the Equal Treatment Bench Book which is highly unlikely to be affected by Priti Patel's instructions.
It won't stop men choosing to self-ID (sometimes at the pont of arrest) as women but it will stop their crimes being recorded as committed by females and, I sincerely hope, stop them being housed in women's prisons.

Women prisoners are also being forced to address the adult males housed with them using their “chosen” pronouns or face punishment for not doing so.
insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

Gender identity is not sex.
Biological sex cannot be changed.
Police and prisons should be recording biological sex.
If there is doubt, biological sex can be determined by a medical examination.
If a person has reasonable concerns about their safety, as gay men may do for example, that should be taken into account but is not a reason for male prisoners to be housed with female prisoners.

BeverleyJB

Galaxy

Thank God forcing women who have been raped or assaulted to use she in court about their attacker is further abuse of that woman.

Unfortunately Galaxy the requirement for a natal female victim of rape by a natal male to address that individual in court by his chosen pronouns is enshrined in the Equal Treatment Bench Book which is highly unlikely to be affected by Priti Patel's instructions.
It won't stop men choosing to self-ID (sometimes at the pont of arrest) as women but it will stop their crimes being recorded as committed by females and, I sincerely hope, stop them being housed in women's prisons.

Women prisoners are also being forced to address the adult males housed with them using their “chosen” pronouns or face punishment for not doing so.
insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

That's disgusting and once again making women bottom of the heap when it comes to rights. If it were me I think I'd be tempted to ask the judge if having taken the oath was I now supposed to, in my opinion, lie? What a vile thing to do to any rape victim.

As regards extra sentencing of prisoners for misgendering,
I'd hope the judiciary are as conversant with neurodiverse individuals as they are with transgender individuals. Neurodiversity can mean an individual could misgender because of what their eyes tell them and not in an intentional insult.

Chewbacca

This is for March - May 2018 trisher, I'll have a dig about to see if I can find more up to date stats....

According to the data collection exercise conducted in March - May 2018:
• 44 of the 124 public and private prisons (35%) in England and Wales said that they had 1 or more transgender prisoners.
• There were 139 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who had sat a Local Transgender Case Board.
• Of these, 111 reported their legal gender5 as male, 23 reported their legal gender as female and 5 did not state their gender. When asked about the gender the prisoner identified as, 114 identified as female, 19 as male and 6 did not provide a response

The problem is that the figures are only collected after there has been a case conference and short term prisoners don't have case conferences.
From the article I linked to
It says the figures "are not yet a reliable reflection of the numbers and location of trans prisoners in the prison estate".
The MoJ can't count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender.^
Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).
About 250-350 GRCs are issued each year across the UK - 4,910 since 2005.
The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference - a meeting of senior managers and other officials - to decide how to manage the trans person within the prison estate.
These are likely to be prisoners serving longer sentences.
The Ministry of Justice told us "prisoners on longer sentences are more likely to be managed as a transgender prisoner than those on shorter sentences".
That's because there's little point having a case conference if the inmate won't be in prison long enough to benefit from it.

A GRC is an acceptable form of proof of sex

It really isn't.
It's a proof that the person is claiming to be the sex which they are not.

If a cheek swab is all that is needed, to establish a person's sex, that should definitely be done.
It's no more invasive than other checks the police do.

many years ago. I think in the 1970s there was a case where a woman kidnapped and raped a man.

An assault like that, and similarly horrific crimes, should be classed at the same level as rape but they are not rape.

That's because there's little point having a case conference if the inmate won't be in prison long enough to benefit from it. but, presumably, long enough to share a cell with another vulnerable inmate? So again, we're back to the needs/benefit of the trans person rather than who they're sharing space with.

Yes Beverley I realised after I had written it that this ruling would have no impact on the treatment of female witnesses on this issue. But then again perhaps it's an indication of the system moving in the right direction.

I do think if we are to approach this in any reasonable manner the first thing has to be accurate and unbiased recording and reporting
That is what we need trisher.

the complete number of transpeople serving prison sentences isn't known, because the numbers serving shorter sentences isn't recorded.
The statistics are based on transwomen serving longer sentences being compared to other males also serving longer sentences and to females likewise.
So I don't see any problem with those statistics.