Staying on topic- threads in general

If you think using wrong pronouns is the polite thing to do (and you are not trisher who has scoffed at this article previously) please read this article.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

"One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance."

Chewbacca

Don't think anybody wants Nutella.

Don't be so sure.

FarNorth

If you think using wrong pronouns is the polite thing to do (and you are not trisher who has scoffed at this article previously) please read this article.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

^"One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance."^

I "scoffed" (questioned?) this article on two grounds. The first colour exercise is mental gymnastics and like all exercises the more you do it the easier it gets and I've seen it a few times.
and The whole article relies on the change being primarily "he" to "she" when there is now plenty of evidence that "she" to "he" is becoming more common. In other words there are more women requesting a change of pronoun than men. When you add in non-binary and those asking for "they" the number increases even more. So it isn't actually the erasure of women the pronoun change is ushering in it's the abandonment of gender norms. So that's my scoffing.

It's the abandonment of recognising sex differences, where they are relevant.
Of course it gets easier to do. That's how grooming works.

Gender norms are being reinforced, of course, each time someone insists on a change of pronoun or a ‘change’ of gender.

To get close to any ‘abandonment’ of gender norms we would have to stop thinking that there is a male and female way of ‘presenting’, and let people pick and mix without their choices being linked to sex.

The whole notion of gender-based ‘presentation’ reinforces stereotypes and takes us further from a fluid society. As it is, my ‘presentation’ varies. I have presented as a quite ‘girly’ woman with make-up and heels, casually in jeans and baggy jumpers, a hippy with long hair and a long-haired boyfriend, briefly as a punk, and so on (much of that in my younger days, when my ‘presentation changed regularly). Most people change the way they look - there are whole industries depending on it.

For decades parents have been able to offer their children a range of toys that used to be gendered- I did with my children and it was not unusual. Why can’t we extend that principle to include a wider range of areas, and work towards getting rid of gender ‘presentation’ altogether.

IMO that would be far more progressive than clinging to the idea that these norms are somehow inherently male or female and that people have to ‘change’ to use them, or to make a declaration that they are ‘neutral’ in line with what most people are quietly doing already.

FarNorth

It's the abandonment of recognising sex differences, where they are relevant.
Of course it gets easier to do. That's how grooming works.

It's a mental exercise like croswords or sudoko why on earth bring "grooming" into it?

Sorry FarNorth but most transgender people I know or watch online, my brain gives them the pronoun they have asked for based on the evidence it is seeing, even knowing they are trans.

I feel as if the article you shared is more likely to partially explain the reaction of those who cannot accept trans people. Being already wary of trans people they may be looking deeper than I do.

I can see how difficult it could be for people who knew that person before transition and I can even see it as being halmful to them but it must be just as halmful to feel like one set of pronouns suits you and then be constantly given others.

Aren't we all doing that wrong? Trans people are basing their reactions on how they identify and see themselves, a lot of the time others are basing their reactions on people they don't really know.

I also see so many problematic approaches in a lot of places where these things are being discussed too, telling trans allies what they think, how they feel, what they meant, who they must be as people for caring about the needs of trans people.

That hurts my head the most.

Where do the notions that being called ‘she’ goes along with wearing certain clothes, or having certain hairstyles, or shaving your legs, or whatever, and that these ‘presentational’ things are what makes you a certain gender come from?

Gender norms amongst humans are socially determined and culturally specific - they are not ‘natural’ or inherent. I don’t understand how people can ‘know that they are in the ‘wrong’ body’. They are in their body - if there is a clash between the gender norms that society has decided are appropriate for someone of their sex and the way they would prefer to behave, isn’t the answer to defy the gender norms, rather than attempt to change their sex?

Gender norms change across cultures and over time? Look at the way that they have changed in our own lifetimes, and the difference between cultures in other societies and cultural groups within our own.

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

Fashions change, too. Boys in dresses were once the norm, and women in trousers an aberration. There is nothing ‘natural’ about any of it, so how is there a deep-seated need to conform to one set or the other? Why not break up the way norms are assigned to ‘sets’ as in the above examples and pick and mix at will?

If people are revolted by their bodies in genuine dysmorphia, that is different, isn’t it? That is a question, not a statement, incidentally. It still has to be a learnt response to their body though, doesn’t it, as gender norms vary so much?

Doodledog

Where do the notions that being called ‘she’ goes along with wearing certain clothes, or having certain hairstyles, or shaving your legs, or whatever, and that these ‘presentational’ things are what makes you a certain gender come from?

Gender norms amongst humans are socially determined and culturally specific - they are not ‘natural’ or inherent. I don’t understand how people can ‘know that they are in the ‘wrong’ body’. They are in their body - if there is a clash between the gender norms that society has decided are appropriate for someone of their sex and the way they would prefer to behave, isn’t the answer to defy the gender norms, rather than attempt to change their sex?

Gender norms change across cultures and over time? Look at the way that they have changed in our own lifetimes, and the difference between cultures in other societies and cultural groups within our own.

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

Fashions change, too. Boys in dresses were once the norm, and women in trousers an aberration. There is nothing ‘natural’ about any of it, so how is there a deep-seated need to conform to one set or the other? Why not break up the way norms are assigned to ‘sets’ as in the above examples and pick and mix at will?

If people are revolted by their bodies in genuine dysmorphia, that is different, isn’t it? That is a question, not a statement, incidentally. It still has to be a learnt response to their body though, doesn’t it, as gender norms vary so much?

I suppose if you haven't met or experienced someone who feels they are in the wrong body and the absolute certainty of that for them, you might not be aware. But questioning the reality of this, dismissing it as just "shaving your legs" or having certain hairstyles" is simply not acceptable. Why would you question that?
And young people do defy gender norms all the time. It doesn't have the slightest thing to do with gender dysphoria which like it or not is recognised by the medical profession
The idea that everything would be OK if boys just wore dresses is ridiculous. Can you imagine any other condition being dismissed in this way. It reminds me of the way people used to talk about mental illness- there's nothing wrong with you. Just pull yourself together.
FYI www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

In answer to your question Doodledog I would say yes, body dysmorphia ie being revolted by and finding nothing but fault with your body is different.

The source/sources of revulsion are often not discernible to anyone else. The body they have isn't the wrong body, it's wrong.

Another well written, informative and thought provoking post; thank you.

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

These 180° turn arounds in the 'expectations' of gender norms illustrate perfectly why we should just do away with them completely. In both illustrations it is men who are determining what should be the norm. What a surprise!

Challenging gender roles. He's a man in a dress. He's a drag queen. He's not trans

Challenging gender roles- woman in a suit- she's not trans!

trisher, I didn't say it was 'just' about shaving your legs or having certain hairstyles. I said that they were examples of how gender norms were created by society. The 'boys in dresses' example was about the way that all children wore dresses until they were 5 or so, as a norm. Nothing to do with wearing them as a challenge to norms. In the context of my post, I would say that anyone taking it another way must have been looking for ways to find fault, but I will leave that foothers to judge.

As for my comment on gender dysphoria - why did you feel the need to add 'like it or not'? I was careful to say that I was asking a question, not passing a judgement. Why would I 'like it' or 'not like it'? What an odd comment.

Thank you, SueDonim, for your response. And to you, Rosie for your understanding of my post.

foothers to judge.

For others to judge!

And whilst I'm here, yes, I know the difference between drag and trans. And between transvestism and transsexuality. ?

And between 'gender bending' fashion and either of the above.

So do you agree that gender norms are now being challenged Doodledog? That women can do far more than at any stage in our history? That more men are now taking responsibility for childcare and what were once called "women's jobs" Of course it hasn't gone far enough and there are huge steps to undertake. But really that is nothing to do with gender dysphoria which is an accepted medical condition.
It's almost 100 years since boys were kept in dresses and it was never to do with gender roles. A boy in a dress was still treated as a boy. He was never treated as a girl. His role in life was clear. It was a way of fooling the evil spirits who killed more boys than girls (it was easier to toilet train as well). Girls were still treated differently.
But as I said this is nothing to do with gender dysphoria.
I supose you could argue its to do with non-binary people but I don't think you meant them did you?

No.

I don't think that it has to do with trans at all.

Gender norms are not always challenged - they morph with time and over cultures, usually for political reasons.

Shared childcare responsibilities are more likely to be a result of the need for both parents to earn a living, and of fewer women being prepared to be financially dependent.

I repeat for the hard of thinking - the example of boys in dresses was simply to show that what is now seen to be a challenge to gender norms once was the norm. An example of how norms change over time and are not inate.

If you read my post for content, rather than for ways to pick holes, you will see that I clearly said that body dysphoria was different.

So are you saying there are two sorts of trans people Doodledog the "real" transpeople who suffer from gender dysphoria and others who do not?

AS for the "its' because both parents are working" argument some of it may be true but I think there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in.

So are you saying there are two sorts of trans people Doodledog the "real" transpeople who suffer from gender dysphoria and others who do not?
No, but if you want to divide people on dysphoria lines, go ahead.

AS for the "its' because both parents are working" argument some of it may be true but I think there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in.
Maybe. Probably, actually. My husband stayed at home for a couple of years when ours were little, and would have loved the children and been actively involved in raising them even if he hadn't. But it's the fact that women are now able to work for the same rates as men that made that possible. If my father had wanted to do the same, my mother wouldn't have been able to earn enough to pay the mortgage and support a family, as it was legal to pay women less than men.

I think society is much more gendered than it used to be, particularly for children.

That's why we have to fight the stereotypes and the notion that there there is a way to live or dress 'as a woman'

Oh and for the hundredth time most of us know many people with gender dysphoria, and er lots of them are gender critical.

It's almost 100 years since boys were kept in dresses and it was never to do with gender roles. A boy in a dress was still treated as a boy.

That's exactly the point.
Just as women in trousers was once considered to be a shocking idea, now most women wear trousers and are, of course, still recognised as women.

I think it's very unlikely you'll find any account of a "trans child" that doesn't give reference to clothes, hair, toys as "proof" of the child being the opposite sex.
Adult trans people often make similar claims.

Here is Jazz Jennings reading "I Am Jazz".

youtu.be/BF5D2lsPfsU