Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

trisher You don’t have to be feminist to support men with disabilities so your intersectional point only works in your head, oh and possibly the minds of VS and GJ.
I support the things not relating to women as a sentient human being.
However if you can only support the things in your pretty coloured circles if you can call it intersectional feminism then that’s your choice.
As long as your feminism respects the rights and needs of females when they are directly harmed by demands of men or TW, I don’t think the pretty coloured circles matter.
If, in those circumstances you support non females, then your pretty coloured circles and your intersectionalism is just another way of showing how little regard for females you really have.

I literally wasn't even present for the discussion on disabilities and haven't even read it MollyGo

It's hard work these days but I do generally prefer to do my own thinking lol

Ok, VS, so are you saying that you think that those of us who feel that male-bodied people should not be in spaces where women don't want them? If I have missed you say that, I apologise.

Doodledog

Ok, VS, so are you saying that you think that those of us who feel that male-bodied people should not be in spaces where women don't want them? If I have missed you say that, I apologise.

I think you've left out something

Doodledog the current wait for appointments at an NHS gender clinic is very long- this is for a first assessment and hormone treatment. Gender reassignment surgery takes even longer. There are people who have waited almost 5 years and still have not completed their treatment. Are you saying that because they cannot access surgery they should be punished by having their access to spaces limited? Isn't that by its very nature discriminatory? Dividing transwomen into those who have had surgery and those who haven't, which may depend on having the ability to pay for it.

For me surgery makes no difference. I think doodledog has a different view though. The idea that a woman is sinply a man with their penis removed is misogyny on steroids to me.

Having major surgery also carries many risks

Yes and I am not sure what difference it makes ultimately, if the man who is the subject of this thread had had surgery he still shouldn't be in a womans prison.

your intersectional point only works in your head

No. That IS the definition of intersectional feminism. You may not agree with it and you may not be an intersectional feminist, but there is a whole movement that agree with it. I appreciate there are still other types of feminism around, but they are the reason intersectional feminism was created. To have a feminist movement that wasn't a 'just us' system that really only benefitted white, middle class, western women.

trisher

Doodledog the current wait for appointments at an NHS gender clinic is very long- this is for a first assessment and hormone treatment. Gender reassignment surgery takes even longer. There are people who have waited almost 5 years and still have not completed their treatment. Are you saying that because they cannot access surgery they should be punished by having their access to spaces limited? Isn't that by its very nature discriminatory? Dividing transwomen into those who have had surgery and those who haven't, which may depend on having the ability to pay for it.

Currently 5 years trisher. I read an article about it this week. Rates of suicide amongs trans people have gone up because unless they can afford private healthcare, it is now mostly inaccessible for the average person.

But according to the information I have seen rates of suicide are not improved by surgery so not sure that is the answer.

Galaxy

But according to the information I have seen rates of suicide are not improved by surgery so not sure that is the answer.

Bodily autonomy Galaxy. People get to make their own choices.

There really needs to be adequate research done on this so that we ensure we are offering the best outcomes.

What?

The research I’m aware of indicates Mental health problems persist whether surgery is involved Or not

Yes but there is also the medical guidance of do no harm. And if rates of suicide increase after surgery then we need to look at. And provide information accordingly.

Yes and I am not sure what difference it makes ultimately, if the man who is the subject of this thread had had surgery he still shouldn't be in a womans prison.

This 100%. Nor anywhere else near vulnerable women.

trisher

Doodledog the current wait for appointments at an NHS gender clinic is very long- this is for a first assessment and hormone treatment. Gender reassignment surgery takes even longer. There are people who have waited almost 5 years and still have not completed their treatment. Are you saying that because they cannot access surgery they should be punished by having their access to spaces limited? Isn't that by its very nature discriminatory? Dividing transwomen into those who have had surgery and those who haven't, which may depend on having the ability to pay for it.

No, I'm not saying that.

It's not about punishment, and I didn't mention surgery. IMO, places where women really want to be with other women (eg rape suites, hospital wards, prison wings) are relatively easily avoided by transwomen, and if they want acceptance everywhere else (which I am happy to give) avoiding those places seems a small price to pay. To me, it's akin to me not being welcome in some types of monastery. I understand why I wouldn't be welcome, and wouldn't dream of imposing myself. Similarly, if transwomen want to take part in sport, they should have the decency to do so as male, or stay amateur. To set a male body against a female on in an area where there are hundreds of thousands of pounds at stake (not to mention the achievement and kudos of being the winner) is blatantly unfair, and it would be easy enough for a transwoman to choose a different career.

Galaxy, I don't believe that men can become women, regardless of surgery. I am, however, willing to accept transwomen and treat them as women. I don't believe that they are women, but neither do I feel that whose who have had surgery and hormone treatment are the same as men - I think there is a difference between surgically transitioned transwomen and self-identified ones, for a number of reasons.

VS It would be a whole lot easier if instead of saying that I have missed something you said what it was. I am not psychic. I responded to your post, you said you cba to read my response because I was making assumptions. I tried to work out where my 'assumptions' lay, and replied. Nevertheless, you are still playing guessing games. This doesn't sit well with your 'I am only trying to find a way forward' persona.

I am really uncomfortable with forced surgery, it isn't ethical

VioletSky

Doodledog

Ok, VS, so are you saying that you think that those of us who feel that male-bodied people should not be in spaces where women don't want them? If I have missed you say that, I apologise.

I think you've left out something

Apologies, this quote should have preceded my “what?’ Question at 14.48 today.

doodledog just re read your question to me, it doesn't make sense, you have left something out of it and I'm not making assumptions so I need the whole question.

I’ve started a separate thread where people may want to discuss the CQC reports into the gender identity services at the Tavistock.

Again, I have showed you the assumption I didn't like, you have responded by asking me a question which I think must have something missing because I'm not sure what you mean. I have politely pointed that out. I'm not the one making this difficult.

VioletSky

Again, I have showed you the assumption I didn't like, you have responded by asking me a question which I think must have something missing because I'm not sure what you mean. I have politely pointed that out. I'm not the one making this difficult.

Eh? I'm lost now.

I responded to a post of yours at length. You (rather rudely) refused to read it as you assumed that it contained assumptions, and the confusion arose from then on.

Others seem to understand my question, but I'll try again. Do you think that those of us who think that male-bodied people should not be in spaces where women have reason not to want them are wrong?

JaneJudge

I am really uncomfortable with forced surgery, it isn't ethical

Me too. I don't think anyone has advocated that ?