Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

As regards sport. I would say that if a man has previously taken part in mens events and then decides later on that he is a woman, that is different to excluding women who have never said that they were men and have never competed as men.
Men whose powers and skills and strenth are fading should not be able to just swap over to compete with women.

Hospital wards are, to me, more about dignity than safety. There is often little privacy at a time when people are having frightening and personal procedures carried out, and many would prefer to at least be in a single cell ward for this reason.

It can't be much fun to have people wandering about at night, and potentially getting into the wrong bed, but at least there is supervision - it is not the same as being locked into a cell with a sex offender.

Crime stats are recorded on a basis of sex. trisher do you have incontrovertible evidence that NO crimes by transwomen are recorded as being committed by women, or to put it another way, that ALL crimes committed by transwomen are recorded as being committed by men.

Single wards are neither practical nor as efficient as wards with a few beds.
But here's an idea.
Let's have mixed wards and say one women's ward then those of us who don't mind can have treatment in the mixed ward and those who want to be only with women can hang around waiting for the treatment they need. I wonder how many would?

Any other requests?

Well, now that you're the wish fairy, I would like:

Trans to acknowledge that they are not female, can never be female, can never know what "being female" is. They can dress, act, live however they wish, but should accept that they are not female.

To stop demanding that the rest of society colludes in their delusions that they can change sex by bringing legal enforcements into the workplace, courts of law, hospitals and schools that demands that a person be recognised as a sex they are not.

To stop demanding that women's spaces are given over to them - including toilets, changing rooms, prison cells, crisis centres, medical areas. It's disrespectful.

Listen, hear and acknowledge the anxiety that women have when they see and hear that men are successfully avoiding punishments for their crimes by claiming to be women. Do something about it; be as loud and vociferous about that as they have about "their rights".

Stop participating in women's sports when you know that this gives you an unfair advantage.

Start focusing on changing men's rights to accommodate your needs instead of always expecting that women will sort your shit out for you.

Start demanding that men be kind, and make more allowances for the differences amongst their sex instead of always demanding that women modify and adapt theirs.

Respect and accept that their will be occasions when a woman will not want to be in the same room as you, no matter whether you're wearing women's clothes or not. She will be dealing with her own trauma and cannot deal with yours, so don't ask her to "reframe" hers just to make you feel better.

Stop gas lighting lesbians into thinking that they're transphobic just because they don't want your "lady penis".

Accept that some things in life are just not meant for you: tampons, breast feeding, giving birth have all had to have the words "woman/women/mother" erased just to ease your sensibilities and desires. And in the process, accept that your erasing us too.

Stop with the cancel culture you so strongly promote. It causes deep divisions and resentment and is counter productive. Just because an author, actor, university professor or a man on the 49 bus raises any kind of questions, that doesn't give you the right to hound them down, get them sacked from their jobs or threaten their lives. Accept that not everyone will agree with you all the time.

Be more proactive in distancing yourself from the violent and aggressive TRA movement and Stonewall; they're doing you no favours. They're setting you apart. They are "othering" you and preventing you from just living your life in peace. If they are the minority amongst you, stop letting them speak on your behalf.

I think many of those who have been raped and sexually assaulted would make that choice actually. In the same way they would wait if it meant being seen by a female medical professional.

I have no idea, and really think that this is far less important than some of the other issues.

The principle that transmen are men and not women is the important thing, and when that has been established the rest will follow.

As I said, I don't mean that transwomen shouldn't be treated with equality and respect - just that they are not the same as women, and there are times when this matters, just as there will be many times when it won't.

I somehow missed your post above, Chewbacca (), but it sums up my feelings perfectly.

And here’s another idea, let’s have wards for women who need/want them and put the women who don’t mind, in the men’s ward.

If those women who don’t mind were put in the men’s wards, (which would then be mixed wards, as you haven’t mentioned that men may not like that idea), it would free up places in the women’s wards for those who need them or want them.

Mollygo

*Crime stats are recorded on a basis of sex.* trisher do you have incontrovertible evidence that NO crimes by transwomen are recorded as being committed by women, or to put it another way, that ALL crimes committed by transwomen are recorded as being committed by men.

The CJS record crime on the basis of sex. www.gov.uk/government/statistics/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2019/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2019
Some police forces began recording crime by gender. Priti Patel has said they must stop www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124021/Priti-Patel-orders-woke-police-stop-recording-offences-trans-women-female-crime-stats.html

Transwomen are jut as much women as I or any of the rest of you.
They may not be female and I will acknowledge that some facilities will need to be limited if women will not use them.
But the rest is ridiculous.
Who is going to check on every single place women go? Who will they challenge? What will happen if a transwomen uses a toilet? Will there be another whole range of laws and will police have to waste time administrating them simply because some of you can't stand the thought of a transwoman being in the next cubicle to you?
How long before those safe spaces you asked for become the only spaces women are permitted to go, because men want to keep them safe? It's a small step from being given a space where men are forbidden to only being allowed in that space.
Be careful what you wish for freedom is a delicate thing and restrictions seldom stop at one group of people.

trisher

Single wards are neither practical nor as efficient as wards with a few beds.
But here's an idea.
Let's have mixed wards and say one women's ward then those of us who don't mind can have treatment in the mixed ward and those who want to be only with women can hang around waiting for the treatment they need. I wonder how many would?

Why do you assume that those in the women's ward would be the second-class patients, having to "hang around" waiting for the treatment they need until those in the mixed ward have had their turn? That is not the "equality" that transwomen are campaigning for. Equality would give the same urgency to receive treatment to those in men's wards, mixed wards or women's wards.
And I think a lot of women, given the choice and unless hospitalised as an emergency, would opt in (or without) their nighties to be housed in a ward free of men in pyjamas.

Transwomen are jut as much women as I or any of the rest of you.
Well, that depends on how you define women. To me, it's easy - a woman is an adult human female. How do you define 'woman'?

They may not be female and I will acknowledge that some facilities will need to be limited if women will not use them.
Which ones do you mean?

But the rest is ridiculous.
Ridiculing people is not conducive to civilised conversation. The rest of what? The points Chewbacca made upthread? Which ones are you ridiculing?

Who is going to check on every single place women go? Who will they challenge? What will happen if a transwomen uses a toilet? Will there be another whole range of laws and will police have to waste time administrating them simply because some of you can't stand the thought of a transwoman being in the next cubicle to you?
I don't think anyone has mentioned toilets on this thread, never mind said that they can't stand the thought of a transwoman in the next cubicle. For the rest - I doubt anything much would happen, but if there is a reset in thinking, so that the only transwomen who use female loos are living as female (as opposed to men in frocks with axes to grind) there will be a far lower chance of incidents.

How long before those safe spaces you asked for become the only spaces women are permitted to go, because men want to keep them safe? It's a small step from being given a space where men are forbidden to only being allowed in that space.
Nonsense. All people are asking for is what we already had, without restrictions on our freedom. Nobody is asking for more female spaces, or for men to be banned from the ones we have - just that we should have some places where men don't go, and that if we want to, we should have the right to say no to intimate touching by men when we are vulnerable.

Be careful what you wish for freedom is a delicate thing and restrictions seldom stop at one group of people
Nobody is asking for restrictions - just a return to a mutually respectful observation of differences in limited circumstances.

If transwomen made an effort to compromise, and to accept that they are not women, but 'living as' women, there would be much more scope for mutual support and co-operation.

Doodledog ?

I can’t count the number of times you have asked for a definition of a woman and received SILENCE.

Keep going you are the voice of sanity IMO

OOh Doodledog you obviously don't ead others long posts would you like to revise this I don't think anyone has mentioned toilets on this thread and apologise to Chewbacca whose post you didn't bother to read.,

Chewbacca that sums up my feelings too.

Why do you assume that those in the women's ward would be the second-class patients, having to "hang around" waiting for the treatment they need until those in the mixed ward have had their turn?
Because there are substantially more older women who need hospital treatment than here are men. So in a ward which is mixed with sex assigned bays the number of women's beds can be increased. Women's wards will have a fixed number so only so many and the rest will have to wait.

I've been frequently asked for a definition and said I don't know. I have also asked how those who define a woman as a female would test or find out who qualified. I don't think anyone has expalined that to me. Still wone't it be fun when we all have to carry proof of our birth sex around with us, just because some are terrified of anyone who is a bit different.

trisher

OOh Doodledog you obviously don't ead others long posts would you like to revise this I don't think anyone has mentioned toilets on this thread and apologise to Chewbacca whose post you didn't bother to read.,

?

Chewbacca Would you please accept my humble apology for missing a point you made earlier?

trisher seems to assume that I 'didn't bother' to read your post because it is long. I can assure you that this gleeful assumption is not correct, however - we cross posted, as I mentioned on my previous post (which perhaps trisher missed, or didn't bother to read?). I then did read yours - in fact I commented that I agreed with it, but clearly missed or skipped over one word.

Can you ever forgive me? ?

NanKate, not responding is her speciality when the questions are difficult like
A woman is an adult human female; what is yours definition trisher?
Will the response be,
A woman is any adult human female, plus anyone who says they are a woman, whether that be so they can live life unnoticed in the gender they have chosen or so they can shout and override women’s rights to fairness in competition and jobs, safe spaces including hospitals, changing rooms, prisons and the right to have the word woman mean AHF and nothing else.

Waits in anticipation for trisher’s response to DD’s question.

trisher

I've been frequently asked for a definition and said I don't know. I have also asked how those who define a woman as a female would test or find out who qualified. I don't think anyone has expalined that to me. Still wone't it be fun when we all have to carry proof of our birth sex around with us, just because some are terrified of anyone who is a bit different.

Who is terrified? I am not, so that leaves you and who else?

I have given a definition. Adult human female. For avoidance of doubt:

Adult - over 18, although there are cultural variations.
Human - A member of the primate genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
Female -of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Why is that difficult? There is no need for tests, other then in extremis. As we have all said over and over, there is no issue with transwomen living their lives 'as women'. The problems arise when women's spaces are invaded, including our places in sports events, and with the language. On a day to day basis, there is not going to be any need for 'policing', proof of sex or anything else, just as there has not been an historical need for such things. Someone caught 'impersonating a woman' for nefarious purposes should be prosecuted, but for a transwoman using the Ladies in the WI hut, or whatever, it would be business as usual.

The point of my question about what a woman is, however, is that I don't understand how you can so vehemently defend a man's right to be a woman, or how you can say that a transwoman IS a woman, ('just as much as you, I or any of the rest of us'), when you don't know what that means.

Missed your post trisher. Oops.
Well that was a non answer, so if you can’t agree that a woman means an adult human female I’ll take it that you go with my definition.
The only reasons that I can think of for needing to ask somebody to prove they are female arise in situations where people who are quite obviously not female are claiming to be so to gain entrance to places where they should not be or where they are hiding the fact that they are male to get jobs to which they are not entitled.
The first is easy.
The second is more difficult to judge as it means some men are not trustworthy and sometimes we don’t find that out until too late.

Nothing to forgive Doodledog!

But having asked me what I would like to see regarding the trans issues, I'd really like trisher to address the 12 points on my wishlist. Apart from the ever present loo one, none of them have been acknowledged, which doesn't surprise me as that's the one that's the easiest to resolve.

Thank you for your understanding, Chewbacca.

I'd like to see your points addressed, too. And mine, for that matter. I realise that Hell is likely to freeze over first, however, so I'd settle for two little things:
One, a comment from trisher about the 'adult human female' definition - why is it so tricky for her?

And the second concerns the two conflicting statements below (both from trisher. As these statements cannot both be true, I would love to know which one is going to be retracted.

I have never asked that transpeople should not be excluded from anything simply posed the very practical questions how would it be done and who would do it.

As far as admitting transwomen to any event is concerned I would regard them as being entirely admissable to any women's event.