Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

And you don't see the Christian fundamentalist link there?
No doubt Erika Brown is anti abortion, too.

GagaJo That's your entire take on the situation around Lia Thomas? You make assumptions about Erika Brown.
No comment on Lia Thomas who competed as Liam Thomas on the men's team for two years and now in their first year swimming against women is smashing records, and not by tenths of a second as is normal? You think it's totally fair they've finished almost 40 seconds ahead of the second placed swimmer in a long distance race, down to 7 seconds ahead in a 200 yard race, the fastest time ever for a woman? No natal woman will ever be able to compete against Lia, but that's OK because Lia wants to keep swimming and Lia doesn't mind cheating. Lia could have stayed in their sex class and swum against men but then wouldn't be coming first and smashing records.

GagaJo

And you don't see the Christian fundamentalist link there?

And you don't see the blatant unfairness in the situation?

I am far from being a Christian fundamentalist, but her religion is irrelevant to the case in point, and in any case freedom of religion is important, don't you think?

I think all she was trying to do was make the point that she is not otherwise anti-trans, to avoid the inevitable knee-jerk reaction of 'if you question anything you are transphobic'. Naive of her, maybe, as it happens every time, but it was worth a try.

Of course she can express her beliefs but are you reallly so naive you think there is no hidden agenda.

Once again we have the entire focus on transwomen. There are transmen. They may not fit your narrow agenda because they want to be men (and transition is all about men wanting to be women isn't it). There are people who are choosing to be non-binary because they refuse to join in the battle being created. It's not a simple matter and restricting it to it's just men trying to take over women's paces is just plain wrong.

As for the long diatribe from Rosie51 about how butch women would be penalised, well no they won't because for people who are respectful about other's choices they would simply say they were a woman and be accepted. The real problem are those people who want to examine everyone who says they are a woman, just in case they are a transwomen and then would insist they were defined not as the individual chooses but as they designate them. Quite how this will be done is never explained. I assume butch. women would have to flash their vag to prove they are really women. Transmen presumably would be held down and examined to prove they had no penis.
Transpeople are here you aren't going to change that just stop trying to make it difficult for them.

I don't have a narrow agenda, trisher, so please stop the diversion tactics. It is obvious, as you do it all the time, that you want the conversation to shift to transmen and non-binary people, as it would avoid discussing the massively unfair situation in competitive sport. In the case of transmen there is no real issue if they compete against men (are there cases of this in professional competitive sport?) as the advantage would still be with the men. The ones with the stronger male bodies.

As for the 'are you so naive?' dig - no, I don't think so. It's just that I am not prejudiced against people with religious faith. I may not share their views on God, but I respect their right to hold them. Would you sweep aside the views of Jews or Muslims, and deny them the right to an opinion on topics that are unrelated to their faith? Or would you argue for the inclusivity you claim underpins your every waking moment?

God please stop the thing about genitals its beyond weird.
Oh and I presume Martina Navratilova is part of the Christian right that apparently we belong to. To be honest I know who sounds deeply religious round here, just a different form of religion.

trisher I made the point about butch women (not a diatribe, you really are given to exaggeration!) in response to your 'a woman is anyone who presents in a typically feminine way' definition. Now you say they would have to inform people they were women. I think you'll find most people can recognise a butch woman as a woman without needing to be told, we use our eyes.
Transmen are not the focus because they tend to retain female socialisation, and would rarely be a physical threat to men. In discussions about sport transmen are not taking team places from natal men. A transman has never won a mens competition, and I doubt they ever will. But I'd bet my house that if transmen by some miracle could displace natal men the shout would go up louder than anything heard from women.

You really are obsessed with people showing their genitals, trisher?

We haven't yet cleared up whether you believe that transwomen should be 'entirely admissible to any woman's event', or whether you are sticking to saying that you 'never asked that transpeople should not be excluded from anything simply posed the very practical questions how would it be done and who would do it', so it's difficult to imagine under which circumstances proof would be needed.

If, as you say, transpeople are indistinguishable from members of the sex they want to be, there would be no issue at all unless there was reason for them to be asked (eg inappropriate behaviour).

It's not about trying to make life difficult for transpeople. It's about not making life difficult for women.

If this is from the Daily Mail, I hope you have found credible sources to confirm this story.

GrannyCarrots

If this is from the Daily Mail, I hope you have found credible sources to confirm this story.

Who is that addressed to, GrannyCarrots?

Regardless of the veracity of the story (which of course, you are at liberty to check out) the fact remains that it is simply not fair to have men competing against women in professional sport. That would be true if the Mail had reported that they had been told so by a unicorn.

trisher do you have any contribution to make on the Lia Thomas situation? Do you really think that is fair competition or do you just not care because only women are being impacted?

Doodledog

GagaJo

And you don't see the Christian fundamentalist link there?

And you don't see the blatant unfairness in the situation?

I am far from being a Christian fundamentalist, but her religion is irrelevant to the case in point, and in any case freedom of religion is important, don't you think?

I think all she was trying to do was make the point that she is not otherwise anti-trans, to avoid the inevitable knee-jerk reaction of 'if you question anything you are transphobic'. Naive of her, maybe, as it happens every time, but it was worth a try.

Of course freedom of religion is very important. I support everyone's right to their religious faith, in the same way I support the rights of others in any area.

My point here of course, is that she is linking trans issues to her faith. And if she is also anti abortion, I'm afraid she is going down the anti-feminist, 'pro-life' (which is actually anything but) route.

But I'm sure you were quite aware of the point I was making. We may disagree on some issues but I respect your intelligence.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0KlRK6jbRk
This is a link to a video of the race where Lia Thomas won by 38 seconds. I saw this on another forum.

I saw a suggestion the other day that the female athletes should just remain standing when the race starts and let the Male competitor finish the race on their own. It would be an incredibly powerful protest but it asking so much of those athletes.

If this is from the Daily Mail, I hope you have found credible sources to confirm this story.

Fear not GrannyCarrots, I obtained the information from a letter EB herself wrote to the SwimSwam competitive swimmers organisation. I could give you a link direct to it but you can just as easily find it yourself.

Galaxy

God please stop the thing about genitals its beyond weird.
Oh and I presume Martina Navratilova is part of the Christian right that apparently we belong to. To be honest I know who sounds deeply religious round here, just a different form of religion.

Not religious myself, however, the anti-trans movement is frighteningly like the anti-gay Christian protests. Not that I'm saying anyone on here was anti-gay back in the day. But there are distinct similarities.

IF I was a Christian (which I'm not), I'd point you to Matthew 22: 37-39. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself "

It's not about trying to make life difficult for transpeople. It's about not making life difficult for women.
And there's the great anomaly because if you insist transwomen are not women but are men, you must therefore insist that transmen are women. But as I have said before, women not worthy of consideration. Because you have become obsessed with men wanting to be women, you are willing to ignore them. I suppose you could describe them as collateral damage.

Personally I prefer to afford everyone respect and allow them their life choices and if there is a man in a dress standing next to me I'm quite willing to greet her as she wishes to be greeted, acknowledge non-binary as "they" and call transmen "he" because a little respect and kindness goes a long way.

Christian fundamentalist? Anti abortionist? Anything else that you'd like to your ever growing list of what should remove a woman's voice Gagajo? You have a really odd view of what feminism is; real feminists and all decent human beings don't try to shut down other women because of the God they pray to; that's generally considered to be a bigoted, narrow minded way to look on others. For someone who is clearly so desperate to be perceived as an open minded, generous spirited person, it's shocking that you'd just dismiss anyone's views out of hand just because of their religion and whether they have a personal belief on abortion or not. You're not as broad minded and accepting of the differences of others as you think - far from it.

I am an atheist so to be honest you probably would have been better quoting the words of the teletubbies at me.

Anyone who knows anything about this debate knows that feminists discuss the issue of transmen and work alongside them all the time. It was feminists who stood with Keira Bell. Whilst those who say they support transmen treated her shamefully.

I'm not desperate for anyone to perceive me any way in particular Chewbacca. Anyone that knows me IRL would tell you that I don't give a s**t about how others see me. I live my life according to my own morals and standards and what others think of me is irrelevant. I'm sure there are plenty that think I'm a bossy, opinionated old bag. Meh.

IF you followed my train of thought, which you clearly haven't tried to, you would see the link I was making about the growing right-wing movement, of taking rights away from others. Covid anti vaxers, abortion, contraception, BLM, right to identify as the individual wishes. All very very conspicuous among Trump supporters in the USA. None of it is really about those issues. It is about control. It is also mostly liked to religious belief. Now, clearly, God isn't anti-trans, anti-vax. What it really amounts to is using religion to excuse bigotry. Therefore by linking her POV to her religion, she has at the very least weakened her argument.

*is mostly linked

To be honest Gagajo I find a large part of any debate within America linked to religion, I find it really difficult, it's a very different culture.

I agree Galaxy. But I think with the rise of the right-wing across Europe, we in the UK are moving in that direction. Unfortunately, encouraged by the example of our government. The politics of selfishness.

Yes, I understood the point you were making - it was subtle as a sledgehammer - but my own point remains.

Religious fundamentalism is not my bag, but as I said, I think she was just trying to pre-empt the inevitable reaction to anything that puts women's rights above those of transpeople.

Religious people often bring God into things, as it's a very big part of their life. In any case, it's entirely irrelevant to whether women should have to swim against men, and have their careers ruined when they find that they are not able to compete fairly.

I live my life according to my own morals and standards and what others think of me is irrelevant

Then perhaps you'd like to afford the same courtesy to Erika Brown and stop cancelling their lived experiences just because they don't chime with your own opinions.

I'm sure there are plenty that think I'm a bossy, opinionated old bag. Meh. I couldn't possibly comment!