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Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

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FarNorth Thu 23-Dec-21 01:31:12

Possibly some on this site think this is non-controversial non-news of a vulnerable transwoman.

"Paedophile, 60, who identifies as female is jailed for 20 months after having cocaine-fuelled sex with a dog "

"The pervert was listed under a male name but with a note added to be addressed in the hearing as Claire.

A Sexual Harm Prevention Order is under her new name, but it is not clear whether she will serve time in men's or women's prison."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10336917/Paedophile-60-identifies-female-jailed-20-months-sex-dog.html .

Chewbacca Sun 02-Jan-22 21:26:26

Is the percentage of trans identifying sex offenders disproportionate Funny you should ask Iam64......

"The arrows in the diagram highlight that male-pattern offending is almost 20 times female offending (assuming sentencing is fair) and very much oriented towards violent crime (or crime which could generate harm to human beings) and female-pattern crime is of an economic nature. When you do it like that you find the single highest offence group is sexual violence. (The numbers to the left indicate the MoJ sequencing).

BBC R4 Reality Check programme are anxious to say that the 125 transgender inmates are of unknown bio-logical sex but list the sexual offences involved in the convictions of those inmates. 27 rape and 5 attempted rape, a crime defined by the singular and unique piece of male genitalia, thus at least 32 of the 60 are transwomen with male genitalia.

MoJ states 99.1% of sexual offences are committed by males. Is anyone imagining, with all the public discussion (and transphobia) that we wouldn’t have heard of transmen being convicted of sexual offences? I suspect that the full total of 60 is transwomen ie males and applying 99.1% to 60, leaves you with … 60.

Convictions for sexual offences committed by those 60 trans (women) offenders are in the 2nd attached table."

Doodledog Sun 02-Jan-22 21:35:56

It's interesting that TRAs want to see the definition of rape broadened, so that it is no longer 'a legal definition of unique male anatomy' (as described in the non-coloured diagram above).

Why could that be, I wonder?

Chewbacca Sun 02-Jan-22 21:57:42

This long post will probably upset some posters but it's a brilliant statement, written by Debbie Hatton, for the Centre for Crime & Justice Studies. Debbie Hayton is a physics teacher at a secondary school in the West Midlands; she is also a campaigner and advocate for transgender people:
To those who believe that transwomen are women, the answer is simple: transwomen must serve custodial sentences in the female prison estate.

Objections can be dismissed as transphobic attempts to exclude one type of women just because they had the misfortune to be born with the wrong set of genitals.

However, while I might be a transwoman I am also a science teacher. In 2017, I rejected the transwomen are women argument when I could not defend it from the most basic challenge:

Transwomen are male
Women are female
Male people are not female people
Therefore transwomen are not women

We may long to be the other sex, but we might as well long to live for ever. Science cannot be fooled even if people can be. As a falsehood it is dangerous to both women – who lose the ability to control their boundaries from males who choose to identify as transwomen – and children who are sold a totally unrealistic vision of a future where they can choose their sex.

But in 2019 I argued that exceptions could be made for transwomen who had completed a medical and surgical transition:

My request to be housed in the female estate would be based on my sex characteristics. Flesh and blood is more important than feelings – or even legal paperwork – when housing prisoners.

In England and Wales that approach appears to predate the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA), which made that paperwork available.

But I’ve changed my mind.

When transwoman Stephanie Booth was sent to Askham Grange (a women's prison) in 1989 there were far fewer transwomen in society, and it could be assumed they had been chemically and surgically castrated.

Today’s world is very different. Firstly, there are more of us coming out and we are far more visible in society. Secondly, the definitions have changed. The transsexuals and transvestites of 1989 have been subsumed under today’s transgender umbrella. Winding the clock back 30 years, would society really have countenanced male transvestites in the female estate? And thirdly, the law can no longer demarcate the former categories even if we wanted it to. In 2017, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) reaffirmed that Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights guaranteed the physical integrity of transgender people. As such, gender recognition processes that would lead to sterilisation were seen to be a violation of human rights. In the eyes of the ECHR, a woman can have a penis.

But in the UK the GRA had already created legal fictions that meant legal women could father children (and legal men could carry them). Those who question such bizarre events are denounced as transphobes and bigots, while new terminology - such as menstruators and cervix-havers – has sprung up to avoid offending prickly trans people.

But the prison service needs to work with facts rather than fictions. Women have made the case for single-sex prisons to mean just that – single-sex – and they are right. Transwomen may well need specific protection in the prison estate but that should not come at the expense of women – another vulnerable group. The female estate is small. In 2019 women comprised just 4 per cent of the prison population. By comparison, in a 2005 study, Långström and Zucker found that almost 3 per cent of men had reported at least one episode of transvestic fetishism. This is not a vanishingly small group of people who might conceivably identify as transgender and seek transfer to the female estate.

There is no reason to suggest that the offending profile of transwomen is any different to men we are all males – apart, that is, from when it comes to sex offences. In 2018, the BBC Reality Check team found that 48% of transgender offenders were serving time for a sexual offence (the figure for the general prison population is just 19 per cent). This is not a group that should be housed with women.

Let’s be clear, not all transwomen are sex offenders, and misadventure also leads to custodial sentences. Personally, I worry that a momentary lapse of concentration on the highway could lead to disastrous consequences. While I always try to drive carefully, nothing is certain in life.

But we do not house males with women because they happened to have caused death by careless driving, and we should not make an exception for transwomen, no matter how safe they appear to be. Bending the rules for one makes it much harder to exclude others. Besides, there is a principle involved: transwomen are male, and females must have an absolute right to single sex accommodation.

That leaves the question of where to accommodate transwomen.

While transgender units have been set up – for example at HMP Downview in 2019 – facilities for transwomen should be maintained within the male estate rather than the female estate. That said, I would not want to be housed there myself, whichever estate they fell into. With a small population and one skewed towards sex offenders, I could find myself far from home in a higher security classification than necessary.
Rather than campaigning to infringe the rights of women, transwomen should be calling for our own rights to be protected within the estate designated for our sex. We should demand single-cell accommodation, separate washing and toilet facilities, and further protection that may be necessary to keep us safe.

For those of us whose bodies may look more like women’s bodies than men’s bodies – certainly in the shower – that is a must. But whatever their bodies might look like, transwomen who do not identify with men should not be forced to dress like men. Adjustments can be made. But nothing can change our sex: we are all male and it is in the male estate where we belong, me included.

So, no, I would not request a transfer to the female estate, and I call on other transwomen to do the same.

Mollygo Sun 02-Jan-22 22:10:16

Thank you for sharing that Chewbacca. Magnificently put. Debbie explains both sides of how it could affect her quite plainly, yet still comes to the conclusion she draws at the end and calls on other transwomen to do the same.

Chewbacca Sun 02-Jan-22 22:21:29

I'm wondering what "whatabouts" can possibly be raised Molly; an article written for the Centre for Crime & Justice Studies, by a physics teacher, who is also a transwoman.

Mollygo Sun 02-Jan-22 22:21:54

Doodledog, those other offences listed should remain as offences separate from rape. If I understand what you are saying, expanding the crime of rape to include them would mean the heading would cover females as well, opening a further door for saying it’s fair to incarcerate rapists with females.
I’m not saying that females cannot be guilty of, for example, gross indecency, but rape should remain as a crime which can only be committed by men, whether or not they are transwomen.
All those other sexual crimes, if committed by men or TW should result in incarceration in male prisons as Debbie says above. She goes even further and says all imprisonable crimes committed by males including those claiming to be women, should result in incarceration in male prisons.

Elegran Sun 02-Jan-22 22:22:34

It is very clearly written, both sides explained, and the conclusion is still that women's prisons should not house ex-men, however harmless they are.

Rosie51 Mon 03-Jan-22 00:56:44

Thanks Chewbacca, I'd not seen that by Debbie. I know she's not liked by some transwomen and their allies because she understands biology and science and tells the truth. I'll guess there are posters here who despite not being trans, despite Debbie having had full surgical transition, will think they know better than her, but it was ever thus.
Transwomen and their allies want the definition of rape expanded so that it isn't a 'male' crime, even though the law is capable of punishing sexual assault with a weapon or implement just as harshly.

Doodledog Mon 03-Jan-22 01:11:00

Transwomen and their allies want the definition of rape expanded so that it isn't a 'male' crime, even though the law is capable of punishing sexual assault with a weapon or implement just as harshly.
That's exactly what I was getting at, Rosie.

That's really interesting, Chewbacca.

Iam64 Mon 03-Jan-22 08:23:14

These statistics can’t be dismissed as the work of the anti-trans group. A higher proportion of Trans women appear in the statistics of convicted of sexual offenders.
The article by Debbie Hatton is new to me. Thanks for posting the stats and the article Chewbacca.

Doodledog Mon 03-Jan-22 10:36:40

Mollygo

Doodledog, those other offences listed should remain as offences separate from rape. If I understand what you are saying, expanding the crime of rape to include them would mean the heading would cover females as well, opening a further door for saying it’s fair to incarcerate rapists with females.
I’m not saying that females cannot be guilty of, for example, gross indecency, but rape should remain as a crime which can only be committed by men, whether or not they are transwomen.
All those other sexual crimes, if committed by men or TW should result in incarceration in male prisons as Debbie says above. She goes even further and says all imprisonable crimes committed by males including those claiming to be women, should result in incarceration in male prisons.

Yes, whilst I have no doubt that forced penetration with objects is an appalling crime, suggesting that women can rape with a penis is nonsense, and (as well as gaslighting the victims) would skew the crime figures and make it more difficult to argue against mixed-sex cells or prisons, thus putting female prisoners at risk of rape from male ones.

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 11:47:25

It isn't just transwomen and their allies who want the rape definition expanded it is many legal experts and women campaigners. Why does any one think that someone who chooses to shove a bottle or some other implement into a someone is in anyway different to a man who uses his penis? It is at present described legally as sexual assault and it carries the same prison sentence as rape but let's face it doesn't have the same shock factor as the word rape. In fact rape centres are quite OK with victims penetrated by objects calling their assault rape. It just makes you wonder why the law doesn't do so rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/types-of-sexual-violence/what-is-rape/

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 11:50:15

And it isn't just women who shove things into people men do it as well and it is done to men. Imagining this is a sex crime is seriously out of date. It's a crime of violence and more damage can be done with an implement than with a penis.

Rosie51 Mon 03-Jan-22 11:55:41

It's a crime of violence and more damage can be done with an implement than with a penis. and that's another reason to keep it as a separate offence. If you must have the word rape in the title then rape with an implement would suffice, but keep it apart from the purely male crime of rape with a penis.

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 12:01:43

Chewbacca

This long post will probably upset some posters but it's a brilliant statement, written by Debbie Hatton, for the Centre for Crime & Justice Studies. Debbie Hayton is a physics teacher at a secondary school in the West Midlands; she is also a campaigner and advocate for transgender people:
To those who believe that transwomen are women, the answer is simple: transwomen must serve custodial sentences in the female prison estate.

Objections can be dismissed as transphobic attempts to exclude one type of women just because they had the misfortune to be born with the wrong set of genitals.

However, while I might be a transwoman I am also a science teacher. In 2017, I rejected the transwomen are women argument when I could not defend it from the most basic challenge:

Transwomen are male
Women are female
Male people are not female people
Therefore transwomen are not women

We may long to be the other sex, but we might as well long to live for ever. Science cannot be fooled even if people can be. As a falsehood it is dangerous to both women – who lose the ability to control their boundaries from males who choose to identify as transwomen – and children who are sold a totally unrealistic vision of a future where they can choose their sex.

But in 2019 I argued that exceptions could be made for transwomen who had completed a medical and surgical transition:

My request to be housed in the female estate would be based on my sex characteristics. Flesh and blood is more important than feelings – or even legal paperwork – when housing prisoners.

In England and Wales that approach appears to predate the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA), which made that paperwork available.

But I’ve changed my mind.

When transwoman Stephanie Booth was sent to Askham Grange (a women's prison) in 1989 there were far fewer transwomen in society, and it could be assumed they had been chemically and surgically castrated.

Today’s world is very different. Firstly, there are more of us coming out and we are far more visible in society. Secondly, the definitions have changed. The transsexuals and transvestites of 1989 have been subsumed under today’s transgender umbrella. Winding the clock back 30 years, would society really have countenanced male transvestites in the female estate? And thirdly, the law can no longer demarcate the former categories even if we wanted it to. In 2017, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) reaffirmed that Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights guaranteed the physical integrity of transgender people. As such, gender recognition processes that would lead to sterilisation were seen to be a violation of human rights. In the eyes of the ECHR, a woman can have a penis.

But in the UK the GRA had already created legal fictions that meant legal women could father children (and legal men could carry them). Those who question such bizarre events are denounced as transphobes and bigots, while new terminology - such as menstruators and cervix-havers – has sprung up to avoid offending prickly trans people.

But the prison service needs to work with facts rather than fictions. Women have made the case for single-sex prisons to mean just that – single-sex – and they are right. Transwomen may well need specific protection in the prison estate but that should not come at the expense of women – another vulnerable group. The female estate is small. In 2019 women comprised just 4 per cent of the prison population. By comparison, in a 2005 study, Långström and Zucker found that almost 3 per cent of men had reported at least one episode of transvestic fetishism. This is not a vanishingly small group of people who might conceivably identify as transgender and seek transfer to the female estate.

There is no reason to suggest that the offending profile of transwomen is any different to men we are all males – apart, that is, from when it comes to sex offences. In 2018, the BBC Reality Check team found that 48% of transgender offenders were serving time for a sexual offence (the figure for the general prison population is just 19 per cent). This is not a group that should be housed with women.

Let’s be clear, not all transwomen are sex offenders, and misadventure also leads to custodial sentences. Personally, I worry that a momentary lapse of concentration on the highway could lead to disastrous consequences. While I always try to drive carefully, nothing is certain in life.

But we do not house males with women because they happened to have caused death by careless driving, and we should not make an exception for transwomen, no matter how safe they appear to be. Bending the rules for one makes it much harder to exclude others. Besides, there is a principle involved: transwomen are male, and females must have an absolute right to single sex accommodation.

That leaves the question of where to accommodate transwomen.

While transgender units have been set up – for example at HMP Downview in 2019 – facilities for transwomen should be maintained within the male estate rather than the female estate. That said, I would not want to be housed there myself, whichever estate they fell into. With a small population and one skewed towards sex offenders, I could find myself far from home in a higher security classification than necessary.
Rather than campaigning to infringe the rights of women, transwomen should be calling for our own rights to be protected within the estate designated for our sex. We should demand single-cell accommodation, separate washing and toilet facilities, and further protection that may be necessary to keep us safe.

For those of us whose bodies may look more like women’s bodies than men’s bodies – certainly in the shower – that is a must. But whatever their bodies might look like, transwomen who do not identify with men should not be forced to dress like men. Adjustments can be made. But nothing can change our sex: we are all male and it is in the male estate where we belong, me included.

So, no, I would not request a transfer to the female estate, and I call on other transwomen to do ^the same.^

A great long post but based on a misapprehension. Woman is a term for gender. Gender is a social construct and therefore not based on science but on the social and cultural norms of the society someone lives in. Some cultures have more than 2 genders. We currently have 3 Man, Woman and Non-binary.
If you are interested in gender diverse cultures here's a map www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 12:07:14

Regarding the dressing up and claims of defendants in court. Court appearances used to require the accused to wear a suit and shirt and tie (if male). A lot would never dress like that so it was a form of concealment. Now some defendants are dressing up and claiming to be women. When suspects appeared in a suit no one linked that suit to gentlemen or men of a certain class it was just accepted as normal wear, now they are dressing up why does that have to be linked to transgenderism?

Galaxy Mon 03-Jan-22 12:08:34

And. What has gender to do with sex segregation.

Galaxy Mon 03-Jan-22 12:09:34

Er because people keep talking about dress like a woman and act like a woman. Something which feminists have pointed out is nonsense.

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 12:17:09

Rosie51

*It's a crime of violence and more damage can be done with an implement than with a penis.* and that's another reason to keep it as a separate offence. If you must have the word rape in the title then rape with an implement would suffice, but keep it apart from the purely male crime of rape with a penis.

So someone who has a bottle stuck up her by a man isn't worthy of the same crime as someone who has a penis stuck in her? How do you think that person feels? And why do you think rape centres accept this being called rape?

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 12:22:30

Galaxy

And. What has gender to do with sex segregation.

Nothing but the long post the person equates Female with woman. That isn't true. Female is a scientific term, woman is a term for a cultural norm-gender. It's no good making an argument if you base it on a misinterpretation of language. By all means argue for sex segregated spaces but do it on the basis of female and male and not man and woman. And once you do that the problem isn't so simple.

trisher Mon 03-Jan-22 12:24:05

Galaxy

Er because people keep talking about dress like a woman and act like a woman. Something which feminists have pointed out is nonsense.

That's the legal requirement Galaxy so by all means argue but we have to base things on something, the law seems to do for somethings.

Galaxy Mon 03-Jan-22 12:25:48

You are joking. You are lecturing on the use of language.

Galaxy Mon 03-Jan-22 12:29:36

Yes laws relating to women are often deeply sexist. I would hope that is challenged legally down the line it seems an obvious step. In the meantime feminists will continue to challenge such nonsense. It certainly worked with regard to the changes in education that were made. I think no one now is using the horrific stereotypes that were used in classes as the beginning of this.

Mosie Mon 03-Jan-22 12:30:37

I think this person was sent to a man's prison thank goodness. There is a real issue however as to whether the crime will be listed as perpetrated by a female. I hope not. It does raise the very real concern though as to whether people should be able to self identify their gender. This topic is one of ongoing debate and raises a lot of anxiety and anger on both sides.

Elegran Mon 03-Jan-22 12:32:29

trisher

Rosie51

It's a crime of violence and more damage can be done with an implement than with a penis. and that's another reason to keep it as a separate offence. If you must have the word rape in the title then rape with an implement would suffice, but keep it apart from the purely male crime of rape with a penis.

So someone who has a bottle stuck up her by a man isn't worthy of the same crime as someone who has a penis stuck in her? How do you think that person feels? And why do you think rape centres accept this being called rape?

They are worthy of the truth being used in the trial which follows her horrible experience. If the implement has indeed caused more damage than a penis would have then lumping the two instruments together is blurring the effect. (and more properly when the penis is erect enough to rape it is a phallus If we are going to argue about words, let's do it on all the relevant items)

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